Gears and Locker questions
- Thread starter Rexsname
- Start date
TeriAnn said:
It's not a school of thought I fully subscribe too, but it is a fairly common one.
The LSD supposedly gives better road manners than a full locker, making it much more appealing for the 90% of the time you don't need it. The Aussie locker up front provides the rest of the traction that you might lose with the LSD, but with the manual hubs you can get out and unlock one hub or the other to make a technical turn.
I'd rather be locked/locked and have the manual hubs than having a LSD one either end, but that's just me.
Matt
xcmountain80
Expedition Leader
As stated the road manners are far superior. I have no traction issue with the LSD. The LSD is easy when turning on wet, icy, snowy ground the rear end is less likely to slip out as long as the skinny pedal isn't pushed to hard. I drive 30-50k a year and maybe, just maybe 4k offroad. While most off-road trips require a ton of on-road driving the lsd works best for me and doesn't slip when I need the traction off-road. The locker in the front is obvious, there are just some things you need the front to climb so the back can get to it. But I don't have to tell you how it works. I trust we all know. My mods are an accumulation of my needs and far to much research. I did the whole install all at once which seems to be the most feasible way.
Aaron
Aaron
ntsqd
Heretic Car Camper
I KNOW driving my 'glass buggy with it's One open diff taught me a lot about driving lines. I find myself using that same knowledge whether I'm on my XR-250L or a MTB or driving the Sub.TeriAnn said:I drove my Land Rover open diff for 18 years before upgrading to a rear ARB. I guess I'm just a slow learner
I felt driving open diff taught me a lot about driving.
Patch currently has a rear Detroit and a front Lock-Rite. For years I've played with the idea of moving the Detroit up front & replacing the L-R with a TruTrac for the rear. Driving a Detroit on pavement is a PITA, even if it is one of the so-called "soft lockers" (yea, right...).
The Sub now has a rear Detroit. I have an ARB for the front that I got used. The rear made a huge difference in where the Sub would easily go. Not sure that I really need the front to be lockable as I rarely spin either front tire.
That would be my decision criteria, how often do you find yourself spinning a front tire? If it happens once a trip then a front ARB could be justifiable. If not then maybe not.
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dieselcruiserhead
16 Years on ExPo. Whoa!!
TeriAnn said:I drove my Land Rover open diff for 18 years before upgrading to a rear ARB. I guess I'm just a slow learner
I felt driving open diff taught me a lot about driving.
I did the same, for about 10 years I was open in my 60 series and 40 series Land Cruisers and for nearly a year with my 55. The lockers were amazing but I really learned a lot trying to get up and through things with no lockers at all. How to bump, slip the clutch, left footed braking, etc...
TeriAnn
Explorer
xcmountain80 said:
Ah, I hadn't realized you had much icy roads in Florida.
As I understand you, the limited slip in the rear and unlocked front works better for you on icy roads. And your diff set up is designed primarily upon what works best for you on icy roads. OK, Gotcha.
I don't have a whole lot of experience on icy roads so just tend to drive slow to compensate for my lack of experience. My set up is based upon non icy surfaces:
1. 2WD open diff for highway (not icy)
2. 4WD with limited slip up front and open diff in the rear (I've found the vehicle is more apt to go in the direction I point my tyres when in mud of sand)
3. 4WD limited slip up front, rear diff locked for those difficult times.
xcmountain80
Expedition Leader
As Teri pointed out there are no Icy roads in FL, but I wouldn't be much of an explorer if I only traveled in FL. Unless of course I was on some sort of State only house arrest. That not being the case, it does rain here oddly enough though no Hurricanes this year . You totally left off the wet and snowy part of my description, how thoughtless of you. You might drive slow not so much because of you, but mainly because of the rover isn't all that quick? Now before you say oh it doesn't have to be quick to be capable (I couldn't agree more) just consider my setup before you apply it to yours. I enjoy rovers and had the joy of using a 65 for some time. Quick she wasn't but would go anywhere! Oh and if you don't want a locker in the front and a lsd in the rear it's cool, I'll wait for you at the top then we can have some coffee or tea and continue on.
Aaron
. You totally left off the wet and snowy part of my description, how thoughtless of you. You might drive slow not so much because of you, but mainly because of the rover isn't all that quick? Now before you say oh it doesn't have to be quick to be capable (I couldn't agree more) just consider my setup before you apply it to yours. I enjoy rovers and had the joy of using a 65 for some time. Quick she wasn't but would go anywhere! Oh and if you don't want a locker in the front and a lsd in the rear it's cool, I'll wait for you at the top then we can have some coffee or tea and continue on.Aaron
Rexsname
Explorer
prices for the re-gear
Wow what a wide range of prices on the various estimates. From a low of $1250 up to $2000 ($3250 with an ARB instaled!) One of the highest prices was from a shop that had never installed an IFS front diff. I really want to get at least 1000 miles on the re-gear before we start towing again in February. I think that with the crawl box and a willingness to try a different line I can hold off on the front ARB for a couple more years.
REX
Wow what a wide range of prices on the various estimates. From a low of $1250 up to $2000 ($3250 with an ARB instaled!) One of the highest prices was from a shop that had never installed an IFS front diff.
I really want to get at least 1000 miles on the re-gear before we start towing again in February. I think that with the crawl box and a willingness to try a different line I can hold off on the front ARB for a couple more years.REX
If it were my Taco, I would pass on the front locker. The independent system is not really robust enough to suffer locker use, the CV's being the most likely to break under stress. Truly there are situations in which a front locker is useful, and I admit that my race vehicle has ARB's front and rear. But, for every 10 miles I drive off-road, I use the front locker about 100 yards. And, I could get by without it. Actually, I think I rarely get much more than another few feet with it turned on if conditions are so severe to begin with. A good winch is a far better investment than a front locker. On my 68 CJ-5 I don't intend to use any lockers at all, and if I were to look for a traction aid, I would look for an LSD for the rear, but never a locker for the front.
Most folks that watch me drive would not credit that I do it largely with the ARB's turned off. In the end, though, it depends entirely on where you drive and whether you could simply not cover the terrain without the front locked.
GMc.
Most folks that watch me drive would not credit that I do it largely with the ARB's turned off. In the end, though, it depends entirely on where you drive and whether you could simply not cover the terrain without the front locked.
GMc.
TeriAnn
Explorer
xcmountain80 said:
Sorry, just an attempt at humor that obviously didn't work
xcmountain80 said:
Umm I drive icy roads slowly because I'm not experienced with icy roads and wish to be safe.
My Land Rover is powered by a 1970 Mustang 302 V8 with 1991 fuel injection system. With my gearing high range fourth gear puts me at 2680 RPM @ 65 MPH. 75 MPH only takes a gentle movement of the throttle pedal. At the other end low range first is 70:1 at the axle. I can go quite fast quickly or very slow if I choose.
Anyway I apologize if you took offense where none was intended I was just trying to understand why you choose the combination that you did because it was counterintuitive to my experience. I don't know what works best on ice roads. I threw in what I use for different conditions as a rationalization for my choice.
Alaska Mike
ExPo Moderator/Eye Candy
Like Madizell, I have ARBs front and rear on my Jeep. The thing I like most about them is that you can turn them off. I use the rear MUCH more than the front, turning on the front only for short, straight sections. Bang for the buck, it wasn't that useful of a mod. As he said, they will only get you a little further, and often that's just more stuck. A good winch gets you further with less breakage. Does that mean I'm taking the front ARB out? Nope.
I probably won't be installing ARBs on my Land Rover, unless I swap axles over from my Jeep. More likely it will be a Toyota e-locker in the rear and that's it.
I probably won't be installing ARBs on my Land Rover, unless I swap axles over from my Jeep. More likely it will be a Toyota e-locker in the rear and that's it.
MaddBaggins
Explorer
I agree with Terri on driving open for a while. It's a great way to develope some driving skill. I drove my 80 that way for a couple years, then put an Aussie locker in the rear. Drove it that way for another year then put in 4.88's and an ARB front locker. This combo works pretty well in my 80. I may, some day, go to an ARB rear, but I'm not in any hurry.
When I broke in my gears I ran cheap-****** gear oil for about 1000 miles then changed it out and put in my prefered oil. I drove it easy for that 1k, no hard take-offs, minimal wheeling and no towing.
When I broke in my gears I ran cheap-****** gear oil for about 1000 miles then changed it out and put in my prefered oil. I drove it easy for that 1k, no hard take-offs, minimal wheeling and no towing.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I have ARB lockers in front and rear. Easy for me to say, but I think the money is better spent in other places first unless you're really into crawling. Particularly the front, I use it very rarely during wheeling season. Now OTOH, I've used it a few times getting my truck out after a weekend ski trip. I'm not the smartest rube around, but if the parking spot is not ideal, I am head's up enough to throw the chains on before I park. Come back to a foot or two of new snow and having 4 locked and chained wheels has a couple times been the difference in having a burger and beer after a good trip and waiting until spring to get my truck.
I disagree with the notion that the front end of an IFS truck is not worth locking. It is true that it's weaker than the back (it's a 7.5" R&P, for one), but the CV axles are not that much less strong than Birfields (really just the inner joint that's the problem, the outer CV joint is easily as strong as a Birfield). And if it does break, in the case of the torsion bar IFS if you press the studs out of the side flanges, removal and installation is about a 15 minute deal and so it's not much of a pain to do. But locking the front end may actually reduce the chance of breaking something. You very likely are under more control and that alone will reduce the chance of breaking stuff. But, yeah, locked, if you lift a front wheel (and with IFS, that's SOP) you have to be careful. With a locked front end you can lift a wheel and keep moving at a reasonable pace (not as much momentum needed), so I think the chance of breakage is about the same, maybe a little lower overall until you start talking hardcore 'wheeling and double transfers. But for overland type stuff I think the benefits outweigh the downsides. Heck, assuming that you do break a CV, with a locker you can still keep 4WD and maybe not get stuck any worse.
I disagree with the notion that the front end of an IFS truck is not worth locking. It is true that it's weaker than the back (it's a 7.5" R&P, for one), but the CV axles are not that much less strong than Birfields (really just the inner joint that's the problem, the outer CV joint is easily as strong as a Birfield). And if it does break, in the case of the torsion bar IFS if you press the studs out of the side flanges, removal and installation is about a 15 minute deal and so it's not much of a pain to do. But locking the front end may actually reduce the chance of breaking something. You very likely are under more control and that alone will reduce the chance of breaking stuff. But, yeah, locked, if you lift a front wheel (and with IFS, that's SOP) you have to be careful. With a locked front end you can lift a wheel and keep moving at a reasonable pace (not as much momentum needed), so I think the chance of breakage is about the same, maybe a little lower overall until you start talking hardcore 'wheeling and double transfers. But for overland type stuff I think the benefits outweigh the downsides. Heck, assuming that you do break a CV, with a locker you can still keep 4WD and maybe not get stuck any worse.
crawler#976
Expedition Leader
Hey Rex!
I've probably broke more Toy thirds than most folks...4 rear thirds (all R&P failure), 2 front thirds (one R&P failure, the other a broken Detroit).
So, here's a method that works for gear break in. My 3rd spooled third went over 30K before grenading at the Hammer's - that's pretty good considering the type of use the truck saw.
1. Use cheap dinosaur based gear oil for break in (no synth - it's too slick)
2. Drive no more than 20 miles, allow the gears to cool completely (that may take 4 hours or more. I drove to work and parked for 5 hours and the thrids would still be warm...)
3. Repeat the above twice more, then change the gear oil after 100 miles. That removes any pieces of gasket matl and flushes the phosphate coating and any small pieces of metal flakes present. Refill with dino oil again.
4. No hard wheelin', no towing for the first 500 miles (and that mean no crawler use, dude...)
5. Drain and refill w/ a high quality Synthetic at 1000 miles.
________________________________
Front locker...
While I'd love to have a front ARB, I decided to spend a bit more and get a TJM T-17 bumper channel and a Warn M8000, along with upgrading to dual batteries. The TJM offers substantially more front end protection than the stock bumper, yet only adds 40 Lbs to the front end. Going with synthetic rope on the winch reduces the weight of the M8000 to about 50 Lbs, so in total the additional 90 Lbs or so shouldn't doesn't adversely effect front suspention too much.
I'm still in the process of getting everything installed, but have had the TJM on for two wheelin' trips and didn't notice any difference at all weight wise. What I did notice was much a better approach angle on the front end.
Mark
I've probably broke more Toy thirds than most folks...4 rear thirds (all R&P failure), 2 front thirds (one R&P failure, the other a broken Detroit).
So, here's a method that works for gear break in. My 3rd spooled third went over 30K before grenading at the Hammer's - that's pretty good considering the type of use the truck saw.
1. Use cheap dinosaur based gear oil for break in (no synth - it's too slick)
2. Drive no more than 20 miles, allow the gears to cool completely (that may take 4 hours or more. I drove to work and parked for 5 hours and the thrids would still be warm...)
3. Repeat the above twice more, then change the gear oil after 100 miles. That removes any pieces of gasket matl and flushes the phosphate coating and any small pieces of metal flakes present. Refill with dino oil again.
4. No hard wheelin', no towing for the first 500 miles (and that mean no crawler use, dude...)
5. Drain and refill w/ a high quality Synthetic at 1000 miles.
________________________________
Front locker...
While I'd love to have a front ARB, I decided to spend a bit more and get a TJM T-17 bumper channel and a Warn M8000, along with upgrading to dual batteries. The TJM offers substantially more front end protection than the stock bumper, yet only adds 40 Lbs to the front end. Going with synthetic rope on the winch reduces the weight of the M8000 to about 50 Lbs, so in total the additional 90 Lbs or so shouldn't doesn't adversely effect front suspention too much.
I'm still in the process of getting everything installed, but have had the TJM on for two wheelin' trips and didn't notice any difference at all weight wise. What I did notice was much a better approach angle on the front end.
Mark