Guess who's back!?! Atl-atl's K5 Blazer + Four Wheel Camper "The Crawlin Cabin" documentation thread!

Atl-atl

Adventurer
Your suspension setup is fairly normal. Looks like you have the HD 3 leaf pcks. Mosk K5's have the 2 leaf front springs.

Inverted front springs don't cause wander in and of themselves. You look like you still have a fair amount of travel before the bump stops too. Wander is a factor of front axle caster and short wheelbase. Ride quality will be improved by going to a spring with a positive arch. Wander will be reduced by getting the caster to between 5 and 7° negative.

I would recommend Tuff Country 2" HD's up front and 3" Ez Ride in the back. Alternatively you could go to a 56" 3/4 ton rear spring and run a 2-1/2" shackle flip. Add a 1" zero rate add-a-leaf or longer rear shackles if it looks saggy in the back. Lots of good shock options out there depending on how much you want to spend and weather or not you want to fool around with relocating the mounts.

Warn has changed up the design on their hubs several times over the years, I'd start over with a new or used matching set and stash one of yours for a trail spare.

Ok I see what you mean. Yes it does have the HD 3 leaf front springs, they're even listed on the order card! Im hoping the inverted leaves are causing positive caster which is causing the wandering, since literally everything else has been ruled out at this point.

My plan right now is to do custom 5" ORD springs, stock length(unless someone convinces me otherwise) shackle flip in the rear and extended travel Bilsteins. I am aware that I can always swap the shackle flip and get the ORD front hangers if I want longer springs in the future. I have a set of 35s laying around that I will use for now but eventually will go up to at 40s and a 60/14. Im not afraid to cut since this truck has some rust and rot.
 

nitro_rat

Lunchbox Lockers
There's no disadvantage to 56" rear springs. That's the stock length for 3/4 tons. I wouldn't recommend going longer in the front as that would sacrifice your stability with your camper. I'm sure the custom springs are nice but I have excellent ride quality with the Tuff Country springs even with blown out and totally ineffective shocks (and that's a sign that the spring rate is correct). I'm all for custom springs when an acceptable off the shelf solution isn't available. These trucks have been around for ages and the needed rates are fairly well known and already available off the shelf. You can spend as much as you want to though...
 

Atl-atl

Adventurer
There's no disadvantage to 56" rear springs. That's the stock length for 3/4 tons. I wouldn't recommend going longer in the front as that would sacrifice your stability with your camper. I'm sure the custom springs are nice but I have excellent ride quality with the Tuff Country springs even with blown out and totally ineffective shocks (and that's a sign that the spring rate is correct). I'm all for custom springs when an acceptable off the shelf solution isn't available. These trucks have been around for ages and the needed rates are fairly well known and already available off the shelf. You can spend as much as you want to though...

Im certainly not opposed to spending less money. Does the weight of my camper effect things though? This is the first time I have seen someone say the Tuff Country springs ride well, most people say they are horrendous. Maybe that was back in the day?
 

nitro_rat

Lunchbox Lockers
Im certainly not opposed to spending less money. Does the weight of my camper effect things though? This is the first time I have seen someone say the Tuff Country springs ride well, most people say they are horrendous. Maybe that was back in the day?

Don't confuse Tuff Country with Rough Country...

Tuff Country actually builds two different rates of front springs for our trucks. Ez Ride and "HD." HD are marketed for big block and diesel rigs but I would go with those on your K5 due to the weight of the camper overhang adding to the front axle weight along with your added house battery etc.

ORD still sells Tuff Country and used to recommend them for years. Now they push the custom units from Alcan or whoever as I'm sure the profit margin is better and of course that's justifiable because they're "custom made." If you're set on custom I'd deal with Alcan or Deaver or whoever directly. In all reality ORD probably has the "custom" springs on the shelf already because they already know what rate works on these trucks.

I dealt with ORD for years when I could talk to Steven Watson directly. They seem to be more interested in selling $6500 coil over kits than small parts to guys that only need something occasionally. I still recommend them but it's not what it used to be.

I wouldn't personally go up 5" on the camper K5. The wheelbase is short and that's not good for stability. I doubt you'll be putting the camper through anything serious enough to need 40's. If you do, I doubt the camper will survive. I haven't ever had a 4WC but I've busted factory tops flexing 33's on 2" of lift...

zoomad75 busts dana 44/10 bolt axles on 35's with a 4WC. Dana 60 and 35's would probably be a good setup but I'd stick with D44/8.5 front, 9.5 SF rear, 33's and 2" of lift if it was me. It will drive much nicer and be much more stable on the highway. Sure 40's will look cool but unnecessary IMO.
 

zoomad75

K5 Camper guy
4" of lift is the highest I'd go. My buddy with a 77/fwc went 6" with his big block Dana 60/14b combo and it was night and day difference on the trail. He was hanging a wheel in the air on almost every hard spot the group started to refer to it as a tricycle. It got spooky at times.

Ord's springs are still built by alcan in Grand junction. They can build them directly for you but ord's specs are based on the information you provided. I think 4 corner weight measurements are needed.
I'm planning on ord springs once my 8.1/5-speed swap is done. That way I know what the final weight tally will be.

Going longer on the springs in the front is not really needed. Many do the 52" rear springs up from and while they do flex like mad they don't live up to that abuse. Plus the big changes needed to go to crossover steering since the stock steering won't work. It will add instability since the stock sway bar gets deleted to. The flex is overkill unless you intend to really go hard core on the rockcrawling which I didn't think was in the plans.

Out back the stock springs with the 4" ord shackle flip works very well on mine. I'm probably going to add a zero rate add a leaf to the rears to account for the load of the camper in my case.
 

nitro_rat

Lunchbox Lockers
For the record I don't run any sway bars. A front bar promotes understeer. A rear bar helps counteract that understeer. A solid axle rig with adequate spring rate will handle better and ride smoother without a bar. Plus you save $$$ on disconnects...

If you want custom super flexy springs you may like a bar on the highway but I've found these trucks are heavy enough to flex out springs with adequate rate as to be stable on the highway.

If you do run a front bar, Zone Offroad makes a "shackle" for the front bar that's similar to the ORD disconnect kit. It doesn't have the disconnect hardware but most guys with the ORD kit find it's such a pain to actually disconnect it they leave it connected anyway!

The Zone kit still adds articulation by freeing up the bar's movement and smooths out the ride too. If you're a sucker for punishment it's not much more difficult to disconnect it than the ORD set up bit you'll need a few extra tools.

Minor trimming will clear 33x12.50's stock. I don't recommend 33x10.50's as they don't have enough weight carrying capacity. 2" lift will clear 33x12.50's with no trimming, 315's are probably ok too. 35x12.50's with minor trimming. 4" lift is as much as I'd go ever. Trim to fit your tires, 35's probably ok with no or minor trimming. Can probably trim to clear 38's without looking too goofy. 35 is really a good size that will get you through most stuff a truck this size should go through. 37's - 40's are definitely d60/10.5 14 bolt territory.
 

zoomad75

K5 Camper guy
For the record I don't run any sway bars. A front bar promotes understeer. A rear bar helps counteract that understeer. A solid axle rig with adequate spring rate will handle better and ride smoother without a bar. Plus you save $$$ on disconnects...

If you want custom super flexy springs you may like a bar on the highway but I've found these trucks are heavy enough to flex out springs with adequate rate as to be stable on the highway.

If you do run a front bar, Zone Offroad makes a "shackle" for the front bar that's similar to the ORD disconnect kit. It doesn't have the disconnect hardware but most guys with the ORD kit find it's such a pain to actually disconnect it they leave it connected anyway!

The Zone kit still adds articulation by freeing up the bar's movement and smooths out the ride too. If you're a sucker for punishment it's not much more difficult to disconnect it than the ORD set up bit you'll need a few extra tools.

Minor trimming will clear 33x12.50's stock. I don't recommend 33x10.50's as they don't have enough weight carrying capacity. 2" lift will clear 33x12.50's with no trimming, 315's are probably ok too. 35x12.50's with minor trimming. 4" lift is as much as I'd go ever. Trim to fit your tires, 35's probably ok with no or minor trimming. Can probably trim to clear 38's without looking too goofy. 35 is really a good size that will get you through most stuff a truck this size should go through. 37's - 40's are definitely d60/10.5 14 bolt territory.
I'm running the ord disconnects on mine. I never pull the pin on them. We really put them on to correct the position of the bar with the 4" springs. If you run without the bar has to reach down at a pretty heavy angle and makes the bar act like one that is thicker/higher rate. That makes them ride like crap along with it binding up. With the disconnect kit on the geometry is right and bind free. I know they are a pain to reconnect if you undo them too. My feeling is if the truck needs that much more articulation I'm probably in over my head and should come back the way I came.

As far as a rear sway bar I've kicked the idea around. K5nutt has the '90 Jimmy with the freshly refurbished chalet camper here (the red one) and spoke to him about it at Blazer Bash last year. He ended up getting one for his and raved about how it felt. But a Chalet is bigger in every dimension, plus the rear hangover they are known for. He's got a pretty heavy steel bumper with tire swing and box on the back that is 18-24" further back than normal. The further the weight is past the rear axle the more leverage it imparts taking weight off the front axle. I'm not fully convinced due to the apples to oranges comparison I'm making between his and mine. Besides mine feels pretty good on the highway. It goes around big sweeping corners at speed like it did before the camper. It's a lifted truck and I drive it with that in mind but I can't say mine is ill-handling enough to make more correction to it.
 

nitro_rat

Lunchbox Lockers

Atl-atl

Adventurer
@nitro_rat and @zoomad75 You guys have been a wealth of information and I cant thank you enough. @zoomad75 what front springs are you running? Since your truck is so close to the same as mine Im curious about the specifics of your setup. I will likely run a very similar setup if you are happy with it, even eventually wanting to LS swap. What are you doing with that 5.3 when you go to the 8.1!?!

Looks like I could buy the cheaper Zone swaybar link and just add my own cotter pin.
 

zoomad75

K5 Camper guy
@nitro_rat and @zoomad75 You guys have been a wealth of information and I cant thank you enough. @zoomad75 what front springs are you running? Since your truck is so close to the same as mine Im curious about the specifics of your setup. I will likely run a very similar setup if you are happy with it, even eventually wanting to LS swap. What are you doing with that 5.3 when you go to the 8.1!?!

Looks like I could buy the cheaper Zone swaybar link and just add my own cotter pin.

I'm running 4" rough country springs up front, 4" ORD shackle flip out back. Bilstein 5100's all the way around. I wouldn't recommend the rough country springs, mainly because there are better options out there. This is the second truck I've had them on and with all the wheeling I've done with both trucks, the left front is starting to sag significantly. I've radically changed the rough country ride quality with the Bilsteins for sure, but if you can buy a better pair of springs with less stiff spring rate do it. I am running 315/85-16 tires which measure out a tick below a true 35" tire. Gearing is 4.10 with a tru-trac in the D44 up front and an open diff in the 14b full floater outback.

Like I said before the rear setup has been great for me. The stock '91 springs with the shackle flip has held up fine and flex better off road than the front does. The tonnage outback requires a little boost though. So I'll end up adding a zero-rate add a leaf on both sides out back.

When the 5.3 comes out it will go up for sale. Intake to oil pan, swap brackets, and manifolds along with the stand-alone harness and ECM. I'd probably end up selling the 700r4 with it too since I won't need it with the 5-speed going in. Before the camper became a reality the 5.3 was more than enough for the K5 with the tires and no major load on it. I could boil the rear tires with ease if I wanted to. Best mileage was up around 17mpg, but typically ran 14/15mpg most of the time. The camper changed all that. Aero drag and added weight knocked the average mileage down to 11/12 mpg and gets worse if the elevation goes up or it's fighting a headwind. I've hypermiled it keeping the speeds at or below 65mph and tucking in behind semi's to 14mpg recently, but driving like that sucks. The engine just is fighting outside of its weight class in my case. Climbing grades like Monarch Pass some 2.5 hours from my house is a battle down into 2nd gear to keep the engine wound up into its torque band. Because of the curves, you can't hit it with momentum and haul ass into it. So the curves slow you down and it's 2nd gear pushing hard to maintain 45 mph. I've driven the 40 or so miles home from work with it fighting a 20-30mph headwind and it will only maintain 65 mph in 3rd gear.

Gearing would help in this for sure. 4.56's would keep the little 5.3 wound up more in the torque curve, but I'm going to tell you now that gets old having that thing rev like that to maintain speed. LS swaps are all the rage and in the right place, they are great. In my case, I'm certain even a 6.0L would be pushing hard in my truck. This kind of combination of K5 and brick-like aero of the camper requires torque, more specifically, low-end torque. The 5.3 don't start coming on until the tach swings past 2,000 RPM and peaks around 5,000. The 8.1 starts making more torque than the 5.3 does just above idle and keeps pulling to only 4,500 RPM. My buddy Larry is the guy that really laid the groundwork for 8.1's in squarebody trucks and having been in his K10 shortbed with a fully loaded Phoenix camper, 8.1L/nv4500 drive effortlessly up mountain passes while passing slower traffic while rarely downshifting out of 5th gear it changes your outlook. Funny thing is that his truck gets the same 11/12 mpg on the highway and off-road like my 5.3 gets. His weighs in north of 8,000 pounds loaded for a week-long trip and mine comes in at 6500 now. So I've got the 8.1 sitting at Larry's place and the NV4500 at mine and just saving my pennies to get the rest of the stuff needed to make the change. Even getting the same mileage now, if I'm driving up grades or into headwinds without loosing speed I'm winning.

If your plans include big changes in elevation to get to the trails you want to travel on, I'd suggest a fuel-injected big block and OD trans (manual or auto). 8.1's are great, but becoming a little harder to source now. The next best thing is the L29 454 from 96-00 in the GMT400 trucks and Suburbans. They are really an awesome engine that has been far overshadowed by the LS swap craze. It's overlooked so much that most boneyards that sell complete engines want less for them than they do 5.3's and 6.0's. Many don't even know they are out there. I picked one up for $700 with the complete harness, ecm and they threw the 4L80e trans into the deal for free because they didn't want it. It was out of a 3/4 ton Suburban a couple of diesel bros were swapping in a Cummins into. You'd be lucky to get a 6.0 and 4L80e for twice the price from most. CaptRon's 77 K5 Camper over on CK5 is running an L29/nv4500 combo and it's just as effective climbing grades as Larry's K10 is. He bought a complete church bus with an L29 and yanked the engine and trans and chopped up the rest for less than most buy an LS engine for. Had I not had the 8.1 come into play I'd at least have the L29 going in.

I'd get yours rolling and really get a feel for how that engine works getting the combo down the road. it's not going to be fast, but it will do the task. From there you can start mapping the plan of attack for powertrain upgrades.
 

Atl-atl

Adventurer
Thanks for the intense response @zoomad75 If I were to tell you I found a 96 3/4 ton Suburban with an L29 that runs and drives for $2000, would you call that a good deal? To answer my own question, I think yes.

I went camping and mountain biking in Sedona this weekend. The Blazer barely made it. Temps got up into the 100s in the valley last Friday and it started vapor locking like mad going up the mountains North of Phoenix. Once we got to the cool air it was fine all weekend. Then coming back to Phoenix Sunday afternoon, same thing, had to pull over a few times and pour cold water on the fuel pump/lines/carb and remove the air cleaner and run the carb completely open to get up the big passes. I have only just begun to look into vapor lock issues and my quick peak under the truck made me realize I have aftermarket saddle tanks that are partially disconnected. Im hoping to rip them out this week and run through all the lines, tank vent etc. I hope I dont have to drop the tank but if Im messing with gas I might as well put in a new sock. The truck is really hard to fill with gas so Im thinking at a minimum the tank vent line is plugged.

That Suburban might find its way into my driveway this week.

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ClovisMan

Observer
You can usually band-aid vapor lock by putting an inline electric fuel pump on you fuel line just after the gas tank. There is other voodoo like putting wooden clothes pins on the line going into the carb and wrapping the fuel line that is under the hood with aluminum foil but I find just adding the inline pump works the best.
 

tip

Adventurer
Nice rig! I've had many squares over the years and I've always wanted to build a K5 with a FWC.

I always looked forward to your threads here and on the 'tex. Looking forward to following this one.
 

Atl-atl

Adventurer
You can usually band-aid vapor lock by putting an inline electric fuel pump on you fuel line just after the gas tank. There is other voodoo like putting wooden clothes pins on the line going into the carb and wrapping the fuel line that is under the hood with aluminum foil but I find just adding the inline pump works the best.

Ha, I like the wooden clothes pin idea. As for adding the electric pump, that seems like the best fix that Ive read so far. Do you know specifically what pump people use in this application?
 

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