Hamish question.

[xcmountain80]

Hello all,

I have been toying with the idea about getting a Ham radio, there are quite a few Yaesu models I'm looking at, that I believe would do the trick. With the impending storm season on FL I also do some hurricane work and get into areas with no power and no cell coverage. While I was thinking about just using a vhf marine radio (I dont remeber the range). But for the same money I could buy a ham radio do a simple antenna install and be off (have to get the license). I see from what I can find some of the Ham rigs can receive 108mhz which is the max for the vhf marine radios. Can I only listen or would I be able to communicate with the vhf's as well?

Aaron

 

[mightymike]

Aaron-

You can have an amateur radio "opened up" so that it can both receive and transmit on the Marine VHF frequencies; however there is some discussion about the legality of doing so here:

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5444

so I'll let you make up your own mind. It will void the warranty on a new radio if you do so. I think you will limit yourself if you go with just a Marine VHF radio. I bought a small amateur radio hand held unit and with a magnetic mount external antenna, I have been very pleased with my range. Florida has a lot of repeaters so that will help you. The repeater lists usually designate which repeaters/frequencies have alternate power sources for emergencies and which repeaters have direct contact with law enforcement.

I will get a mobile quad-band radio before I venture out west again. A friend has his mobile radio in his vehicle set up as a sort of repeater so if he is out and about near camp, his signal from his hand held (low power-5w) only has to reach his truck and his truck re-broadcasts his transmission at a much higher power (50-70w) with a much better antenna and this increases his range dramatically.

I'm very new to all of this, I'm sure someone else will chime in. Don't let the amateur radio tests worry you. Study the online tests http://qrz.com for a few days and you won't have a problem. If you ask around, I bet you'll find someone you already know who is a Ham and will be more than glad to help you out.

Mike

 

[gary in ohio]

Hello all,

I have been toying with the idea about getting a Ham radio, there are quite a few Yaesu models I'm looking at, that I believe would do the trick. With the impending storm season on FL I also do some hurricane work and get into areas with no power and no cell coverage. While I was thinking about just using a vhf marine radio (I dont remeber the range). But for the same money I could buy a ham radio do a simple antenna install and be off (have to get the license). I see from what I can find some of the Ham rigs can receive 108mhz which is the max for the vhf marine radios. Can I only listen or would I be able to communicate with the vhf's as well?

Aaron

Yaesu,Icom and kenwood all have similar models. Use of VHF marine radio off a ship is not legal unless you have a fix base marine license. There are no portable/mobile marine license. Plenty of people use them that way but its not legal. VHF marine frequencies are in the 156-15mhz range not 108. 108 is the top of your broadcast FM band. Most ham radio's have extended receive that will cover marine.

Now my question would be, what are you going to use the radio for? It sounds like business use and that would not be legal. The only other people you can talk to are other licensed hams. Its sounds like you want to use a ham radio to transmit on the marine bands and again that would not be legal.

 

[gary in ohio]

You can have an amateur radio "opened up" so that it can both receive and transmit on the Marine VHF frequencies; however there is some discussion about the legality of doing so here:

As I noted MOST radio are open on receive and you cant legally use it on transmit so no need to do that mod.

I will get a mobile quad-band radio before I venture out west again. A

The quad band is good if you have repeaters on 6m and the 10m band is open other wise its an expensive dual band radio with two dead bands. For a few dollars more you can get a HF/VHF/UHF radio and have full band coverage.

friend has his mobile radio in his vehicle set up as a sort of repeater so if he is out and about near camp, his signal from his hand held (low power-5w) only has to reach his truck and his truck re-broadcasts his transmission at a much higher power (50-70w) with a much better antenna and this increases his range dramatically.

yet another common and usually illegal activity, cross band repeaters are not legal unless there is an ID that ID both frequencies being used.

I

 

[Pskhaat]

yet another common and usually illegal activity, cross band repeaters are not legal unless there is an ID that ID both frequencies being used.

Gary, in a completely genuine and resectful question: what FCC rule section references this restriction. I know we've talked about this before, don't want to rehash anything, just trying to read up more on it.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Gary, in a completely genuine and resectful question: what FCC rule section references this restriction. I know we've talked about this before, don't want to rehash anything, just trying to read up more on it.

Some specifically I think covering this would be:

§97.7 Control operation required.

When transmitting, each amateur station must have a control operator. The control operator must be a person:

(a) For whom an amateur operator/primary station license grant appears on the ULS consolidated licensee database, or

(b) Who is authorized for alien reciprocal operation by §97.107 of this part


§97.109 Station control.

(a) Each amateur station must have at least one control point.

(b) When a station is being locally controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be locally controlled.

(c) When a station is being remotely controlled, the control operator must be at the control point. Any station may be remotely controlled.

(d) When a station is being automatically controlled, the control operator need not be at the control point. Only stations specifically designated elsewhere in this Part may be automatically controlled. Automatic control must cease upon notification by a District Director that the station is transmitting improperly or causing harmful interference to other stations. Automatic control must not be resumed without prior approval of the District Director.

(e) No station may be automatically controlled while transmitting third party communications, except a station transmitting a RTTY or data emission. All messages that are retransmitted must originate at a station that is being locally or remotely controlled.


§97.119 Station identification.

(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting channel at the end of each communication, and at least every ten minutes during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the transmissions. No station may transmit unidentified communications or signals, or transmit as the station call sign, any call sign not authorized to the station.

(b) The call sign must be transmitted with an emission authorized for the transmitting channel in one of the following ways:

(1) By a CW emission. When keyed by an automatic device used only for identification, the speed must not exceed 20 words per minute;

(2) By a phone emission in the English language. Use of a phonetic alphabet as an aid for correct station identification is encouraged;

(3) By a RTTY emission using a specified digital code when all or part of the communications are transmitted by a RTTY or data emission;

(4) By an image emission conforming to the applicable transmission standards, either color or monochrome, of §73.682(a) of the FCC Rules when all or part of the communications are transmitted in the same image emission.

(c) One or more indicators may be included with the call sign. Each indicator must be separated from the call sign by the slant mark (/) or by any suitable word that denotes the slant mark. If an indicator is self-assigned, it must be included before, after, or both before and after, the call sign. No self-assigned indicator may conflict with any other indicator specified by the FCC Rules or with any prefix assigned to another country.

(d) When transmitting in conjunction with an event of special significance, a station may substitute for its assigned call sign a special event call sign as shown for that station for that period of time on the common data base coordinated, maintained and disseminated by the special event call sign data base coordinators. Additionally, the station must transmit its assigned call sign at least once per hour during such transmissions.

(e) When the operator license class held by the control operator exceeds that of the station licensee, an indicator consisting of the call sign assigned to the control operator's station must be included after the call sign.

(f) When the control operator who is exercising the rights and privileges authorized by §97.9(b) of this Part, an indicator must be included after the call sign as follows:

(1) For a control operator who has requested a license modification from Novice to Technician Class: KT;

(2) For a control operator who has requested a license modification from Novice, Technician or Technician Plus Class to General Class: AG;

(3) For a control operator who has requested a license modification from Novice, Technician, Technician Plus, General, or Advanced Class operator to Amateur Extra Class: AE.

(g) When the station is transmitting under the authority of §97.107 of this part, an indicator consisting of the appropriate letter-numeral designating the station location must be included before the call sign that was issued to the station by the country granting the license. For an amateur service license granted by the Government of Canada, however, the indicator must be included after the call sign. At least once during each intercommunication, the identification announcement must include the geographical location as nearly as possible by city and state, commonwealth or possession.

 

[DaveInDenver]

So for Part 97.7, I think as long as you were either in front of the mobile repeater /or/ had remote control ability and monitored it 100% of the time, you could be in compliance. Since the point of having it is to leave it going while you hike, the radio would need to be remote controllable (most are not) and you'd have to listen to it the whole time.

Part 97.109 goes to the same vein, the radio must have remote control capabilities to fulfill the requirement. This means the remote operator would have to be able to shut the radio off if it begins misbehaving or causes interference, for example.

Part 97.119 would need to have an auto ID'er most likely. Some radios did have this a few years ago, but most do not anymore. If you were the only person using the radio, then you could ID it and probably be OK. But if the radio is being used to forward a RX signal to your HT, it is not ID'ed and is illegal. Using it in half duplex to repeater your UHF signal to VHF is probably the only way it's could be legal. There is really no way without an auto ID'er to make full duplex legal.

 

[xcmountain80]

Well business is an undefined and loosely based term at best. I will be keeping on contact with another member of my team during Emergency Hurricane Restoration. In most areas there is no power so cell tower are inoperable. I know the range on the Ham is good and thats what I'm in it for. I will be reporting position and progress.


Aaron

 

[gary in ohio]

Well business is an undefined and loosely based term at best. I will be keeping on contact with another member of my team during Emergency Hurricane Restoration. In most areas there is no power so cell tower are inoperable. I know the range on the Ham is good and thats what I'm in it for. I will be reporting position and progress.
Aaron

NO, business is defined. If you are in a payed or compensated while using ham radio then your a business. The fact that cell towers and other methods of comms down doesnt change that fact. A paid SAR team CANT use ham radio for communications, A volunteer SAR team could. There are exception for emergencies, but an emergency is an immediate life threatening event. Searching for someone who MIGHT die is not an emergency from the FCC standpoint. Doing post hurricane work is NOT an emergency.

ham radio range has nothing to do with ham radio, its a function of the radio. A 5watt marine radio will take just as far as a 5 watt VHF ham radio.

 

[gary in ohio]

Gary, in a completely genuine and resectful question: what FCC rule section references this restriction. I know we've talked about this before, don't want to rehash anything, just trying to read up more on it.

It should be noted that "crossband" repeaters can be a confusing term.
Crossband repeaters can be applied to semi duplex or full duplex units.
Lets assume your goal is to have an Dual band, a Cross band mobile talking to a remote station.

In Semi-duplex mode, often called a remote base.
Your HT transmits on VHF, your mobile receives on VHF and retransmits on UHF.
The remote stations transmits on VHF and is received by your HT on UHF
IN this case you need to ID the HT transmitter and the UHF mobile transmitter. THere are a few xband mobiles that can ID properly

IN the full duplex mode
Your HT transmits on VHF, your mobile receives on VHF and retransmits on UHF.
The remote talks on UHF to your mobile and your mobile transmits on VHF to the HT. (single band HT)

In this case you ned to ID the HT and both the UHF and VHF side of the moble. There are NO in production mobiles that can ID in this situation.
In the full duplex mode your under every rule that the big "REPEATER" is under. You need control op, automated or human, a way to shutdown the repeater that is not the same as the repeater input and it must be via wireline or above 148mhz. There are many repeater rules that must be followed.


Now if you use either mode and are only using it while home, even if your not setting in front of the radio but your in your home you would still be considered at the control point. If on the other hand your up in the mountain trying to use your xband in the car and your 1 hr away your not legal. Same setup, but control of the transmitter is the key. Next is IDing, in semi duplex you could ID both the HT and the xband transmitter by noting such when you ID. You would however need to ID the xband repeater with your call if someone else is using it. In the full duplex mode, you can ID one side of the mobile just like semi-duplex but not the second side you cant.

There are some controllers out there that will allow you to setup a legal 2 band repeater and be legal, but most if not all single radio solutions are really legal, Often used but not legal.


Dan did a good job on the specific part 97 rules, but it all comes down to control and IDing.


I have a small portable repeater I built. Its housed in a musican's audio case. It will be used with our CERT/ARES teams to extend communications during a disaster or drill.

 

[xcmountain80]

NO, business is defined. If you are in a payed or compensated while using ham radio then your a business. The fact that cell towers and other methods of comms down doesnt change that fact. A paid SAR team CANT use ham radio for communications, A volunteer SAR team could. There are exception for emergencies, but an emergency is an immediate life threatening event. Searching for someone who MIGHT die is not an emergency from the FCC standpoint. Doing post hurricane work is NOT an emergency.

ham radio range has nothing to do with ham radio, its a function of the radio. A 5watt marine radio will take just as far as a 5 watt VHF ham radio.

Hmm well I guess my only other options is a satellite phone. Man who would have thought.


Aaron

 

[RoundOut]

crossband repeating legally

My question/comment only applies to identification. I acknowledge all discussion related to control operator and remote control and agree that being able to turn a unit on and off remotely is not easily done on most Mobile units with XBR capability.

The identification requirement is every ten minutes while broadcasting and at the end of transmission (see above 97.119 by DaveInDenver).

My understanding of acceptable crossband repeating for a hiker venturing away from base camp, is that the responsible HAM will select frequencies not in use in the area to be used by the HT & Mobile. When the HT broadasts legally, the call sign will by default, be re-broadcast on the repeater. In other words, the repeater won't be actively broadcasting unless the HT is actively transmitting. Does this not qualify as legal broadcast for the XBR station?

 

[gary in ohio]

My understanding of acceptable crossband repeating for a hiker venturing away from base camp, is that the responsible HAM will select frequencies not in use in the area to be used by the HT & Mobile. When the HT broadasts legally, the call sign will by default, be re-broadcast on the repeater. In other words, the repeater won't be actively broadcasting unless the HT is actively transmitting. Does this not qualify as legal broadcast for the XBR station?

First lets correct a term. Broadcasting is a 1way transmission such as as TV station would do. Transmit would be the correct term.

Now to the question. Again see my post above. Which XBR mode are you in semi-duplex or full duplex? When you transmit from your HT you need to ID the transmitter every 10 or at the end of the qso. the fact that your signal is re-transmitted by another transmitter doesnt mean you automaticly ID that transmitter as well. If your in full duplex xbr mode then you have two transmitters, one outgoing and one incoming, even if you flex the rules and use your HT id to id the outgoing tranmsitter, how do you id the incoming repeated signal? Also how do you stop me from using your XBR system and NOT iding at all, this comes back to the control piece. Again there are the rules and some accepted practices. Many hams will do the semi duplex mode xbr when they are within control distance from the radio and its been generally accepted as being within the rules, however when you will not have reliable access to control the transmitter in the event of a problem that "acceptace" goes away.

Again there are ways to legally setup a cross band repeater but it generally requires 2 radio and a controller. Arrow antenna sells a low cost controller to make a legal xbr repeater http://www.arrowantennas.com/uconrtoller.html

 

[xcmountain80]

What do you guys think about the model IC-2200H?
http://www.icomamerica.com/products/amateur/2200h/


Aaron

 

[gary in ohio]

The 2200 is a nice radio and if you every plan on going to Dstar digital is a good choice. If dstar is not in your future and you want a radio for a trail rig then I would look at the V8000 from icom. A bit more rugged, forward facing speakers, lots of alpha memories and just a few dollars more.