Help me build my solar system!

birdman86

New member
Edit: Did a whole bunch of homework this afternoon and think I'll just go through Renogy's website for a package deal. That said, still a few questions:

- I'm looking at a 400W system for 2000Wh demands, and (2) 12V 155Ah AGM batteries wired in parallel for a 12V system. Do I need to ground the battery bank to the frame, or is the negative post on the battery bank good enough for this smallish system?

- How many fuses do I need? I'm planning on a 30A inline fuse between the solar panels and controller, and again between the controller and batteries. Then I'll put a 100A circuit breaker between the battery bank and fuse box (Blue Sea), as well as between batteries and the inverter so I can completely isolate the accessories at will.

- I'd probably get the Renogy 1000W pure sine inverter. It claims it has "Overload protection for both DC input and AC output to prevent damage to the components and the unit", so does that mean I don't need to fuse the inverter?

- Do inverter power switches completely isolate the unit from the battery ie zero power drain when not in use? Depending on the answers I can either wire the inverter straight to the battery, put a 100A circuit breaker between the battery and inverter, or just a simple toggle switch of some kind.

- Also re: inverter, it's 1000W operating / 2000W peak, how big of a fuse/circuit breaker if I do indeed need one?

- Is there any reason to but switches between solar panels and controller, or controller and battery? Or will the controller take care of not over/undercharging things all day every day?

- Is there such a thing as too much wattage or battery capacity?

- I'm reading that two 6V batteries in series vs. 12V in parallel are cheaper, smaller footprint, and better suited for solar setups. Are there drawbacks to going 6V vs. 12V?
 
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4x4junkie

Explorer
You mentioned heating with propane... Will this be with a radiant or catalytic propane heater by chance? (I don't see a furnace fan listed in your list of loads).
Also, 24 hours for a 3-amp roof fan? That's a big fan to leave going like that all the time... (and noisy too)
Finally 60W of LED lights is about the same as 500-600 watts of incandescent... Is that correct? That seems like a lot of light to have in a van (10-20W, or about 800-1500 lumens) is usually the max most people use).

Something to keep in mind about the current draw of a fridge (as well as that of a furnace fan, if that was inadvertently left out) is that it can be very highly dependent on ambient temperature, so there really isn't any set figure that it may use on average. My experience is a fridge in the 40-60 quart size class will use about 450-650 watt-hours when temps hover around 75-85°F, but can be as high as 1 kWh over a day when temps hit 100F, or as little as 50-100Wh if temps remain 60F & below. Something to keep in mind when calculating your loads if you frequent particularly hot or cold areas.

Given what you have listed (and a more typical figure of maybe 3-5 hours/day for that fan and 15W of LEDs), 300W of solar should be plenty sufficient for your setup (you might even be able to squeak by with 200W).


Answering some of your Q's:

- Does MPPT make enough of a difference vs. PWM to be worth upgrading, or should either of these setups be good enough as they are?
- The big sacrifice between the package vs. self sourced options looks like it's the inverter and controller. Are the better components worth the extra $600?
- I know almost nothing about choosing batteries. Do I need to worry about venting? Are there particular brands that are good bang for buck? Do I really need 3 batteries (300 ah)?
- What do the amp ratings for controllers mean? Is it a max capacity and should be fused, or would a 20A controller simply mean I'm not maximizing potential with a 300W 12V system?
- What kind of wiring components do I need to get it all going? Fuse between solar panels & controller, controller and battery, battery and fuse block? Lots of fuses...


MPPT has become considerably less $$$ over the last few years, so at this point in the game I would say it's almost always well worth it over PWM. MPPT significantly improve solar harvest very early & late in the day, as well as when it's cloudy or overcast.

IMO, putting your own system together (vs buying a package kit) definitely can get you a much better mix of components for cheaper. The caveat though is you need to be familiar with what to buy, and to make sure everything is matched well for each other (that the controller can handle the total wattage and/or current of your panels, for example). Another benefit afterward though is that you'll also be much more familiar with the system, which should make it easier to troubleshoot any issues you might have later down the road.

Batteries have become somewhat a topic of contention... My opinion is that ANY decent battery should serve well for years if it is properly cared for (even the Kirkland/Interstate deep-cycle units Costco sells for $80). What causes premature failure of most batteries regardless of their cost, is improper charging (letting it sit at less than 100% charge for long periods of time). Solar generally does an excellent job of keeping batteries charged, so long as the solar system is sized adequately.
On the subject of battery venting... Contrary to some comments I've seen, you absolutely do NOT want to put the battery inside of a sealed box or enclosure, as this can potentially lead to slow buildup of gasses inside the box and possible explosion. Best is to simply have the battery in the open where any gasses created by the battery can simply dissipate into the air (inside of a cabinet or wood or metal box is fine as long as it's not completely sealed to where air can't flow through it at all). The amount of gas produced by any "maintenance-free" type battery is exceptionally small-to-none, so even venting into the passenger area is fine. No odors or dangerous gas will be present except if there is a major charge system malfunction, such as if your alternator's volt-regulator were to fail and force-feed the full output into your fully-charged batteries (AGM batteries can gas in this situation too, so they are to be treated exactly the same as flooded or "wet-cell" units).

Amp (and watt) ratings on solar controllers are to help you size it to your panels properly (or vice-versa). PWM controllers are typically rated in amps (total amps of your panels in parallel), whereas MPPT controllers will usually be rated in watts (but may carry a max charge amperage output rating, which is often the same as a switched load output it may also have). To use an under-rated controller typically means you will not get the full harvesting potential of your panels (most controllers have over-current protection built in, so damage to the controller from too much panel isn't likely to be immediate, but it could still shorten it's life span).

Typically you do not need to put a fuse from the solar panel to the solar controller (the current can never be more than what the panels are capable of producing on their own), but a fuse from the controller to the battery is mandatory.
Many here will wire up a fuse block off their battery to power all of their accessories from a central location, which also makes tidying up the wiring a lot easier... If you do this, theoretically you will want to put a main fuse from the battery to the fuse block that is a total of what all the branch circuits will be, though it probably doesn't need to be over 80-100A unless you have a special need for it (a high-power inverter for example), in which case it's often best to just tie such high-current loads straight to the battery post with it's own fuse instead. IMO the solar controller should go straight to the battery post with it's own fuse, not to a fuse sub-panel.

Hopefully that helps you to get started.
Solar systems aren't too real complex once you start to get to know what each component does.





Edit:
You changed your post while I was making my post...

Grounding to the frame is fine AS LONG AS your vehicle is prepared for it (in other words, you've beefed up the factory wiring that bonds the frame to the battery and the vehicle body, as these wires are usually only #12 or #10 AWG which could be damaged if you were to draw a heavy load off the batteries).
If you don't have a good understanding what's involved to safely use frame grounding, then the easy alternative is to simply use a heavy cable to ground your aux battery bank (-) to the negative of the vehicle (engine) battery, which avoids such issues with the factory frame wiring harnesses.


ALWAYS put a fuse on your loads (this includes an inverter). The fuse protects your wiring (and your vehicle), not the inverter itself. If the inverter has extra circuits to protect it's own self, that's great, but that won't protect the wire going to the inverter if something were to chafe the insulation and ground it out.
If you meant fuse the AC side, if you will be plugging directly into the inverter itself, then no, you should not need anything additional on the AC side.

Inverters are designed to be left wired straight to the battery. When switched OFF (as opposed to "standby" or "sleep", they should draw zero amps (maybe a few microamps at most). So use of the inverter's own on/off switch should be sufficient to prevent the batteries being drained.

Look on the inverter for it's power consumption... If it's listed in "watts", then divide by 12 to get amps... That (or a little above) is what size fuse you will need for it.

You can put switches between the solar panels to controller and controller to battery if you want, though I'd probably just leave the system to keep your batteries topped up while the vehicle is parked in storage. This should not hurt or shorten the life of your batteries at all. Note that when powering up the system with switches, always switch the controller on before switching the panels on, otherwise you might get an error.

And as for having too much system... Too large of a system (not using it to it's full capacity) won't be detrimental to the system itself. But why have all that extra weight weighing you down (and the emptier wallet that goes with it) if you aren't using it?

Anyway, there's some more for you to go on.

Hope that helps
 
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birdman86

New member
Nice thanks! I probably shouldn't have erased that original post now. Didn't see any replies when I made the edit, but I'm slowly getting it figured out...

Are those no-name/chinese MPPT controllers all over amazon pretty decent? I've read endless amounts on building a system today so getting it figured out slowly. It's adding up though... $3000cad at this point! But if what you say about 300W being high I might be able regroup the plan.

Re: the LED's, I've got 10 LED strips in the closet (foot long each) which is where the 60W estimate came from. In reality I'll install half of them or less and if it works use a dimmer to cut power needs some more.

Between swapping to MPPT, reducing LED's and cutting back the fan power estimate you're right that I might be fine with a 200W system... And it'd be cheaper, Renogy's website had me thinking I needed 400W which is $$$$$!
 
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4x4junkie

Explorer
Yeah you snuck your edit in before I hit Submit button lol

The least-expensive MPPT controllers I've seen that seem worthwhile are the Eco-Worthy units. There may be others out there too, but if the price seems really cheap (less than $95 for a 20A MPPT for example), then beware. In the past, there were many cheap PWMs ("cheap" PWMs, not even halfway-decent PWMs) being passed off fraudulently as MPPT units, so again I say beware if you go down that road.

Best IMO goes to Morningstar. Their SunSaver and TriStar MPPT units are top-notch (I have the SunSaver MPPT for mine)

LED strips draw about 25-35 watts per full 16-foot strip, I've found. So if you got ten 1-foot pieces, you're probably somewhere at around 18-20 watts. A dimmer can definitely be effective in cutting the draw down further though.

Also I added a bit more info to my post above if you didn't see it yet.
 

jonyjoe101

Adventurer
I been using my ecoworthy 20 amp mppt 24/7 for almost 3 years, it is a real mppt not like some of the fake chinese mppt and has proven reliable for me. For the 102 dollars i paid it was a bargain.

But for mppt make sure your panel is a high voltage panel, something like 30 volts or higher. Mppt works by taking the excess voltage and converting it to more amps.
Example with some panels I tried with the ecoworthy and pwm, with a 120 watt (21 volt) panel I only get 6 amps (same as pwm), with the 240 watt (36 volt) panel i get 13 amps (only get 7 amps with pwm) .

You dont have to worry about overcharging your batteries with solar. I keep mine always connected. I actually have the bulk setting at 14.4 volts and the float setting at 14.3 volts. The batteries liked to be kept at 14 volts all day long. Lead acid batteries can be maintained at 14 volts indefinitely, when they get full they wont accept any more amps. The only way to force them to accept more amps is to increase the voltage to over 15 volts.

But undercharging your batteries will definitely destroyed them. The reason I float them at 14.3 volts is because the bulk setting on some controllers are timed limited. If your battery is 12.3 volts, the controller pumps alot of amps into the battery to get it up to 14.4 volts, which is about 80 percent. Its suppose to remain at 14.4 volts for several hours to top it off to 100 percent. On my ecoworthy and other controllers, when it reaches 14.4 it automatically switches to float voltage which can be as low 13.3 volts. The battery never gets a full charge. If the float is set to 14.3 volts, you get your full charge every day. I been using these settings on my kinetik khc2000 102ah agm battery for about 2 years, the battery still reads 12.9 volts after the sun goes down after a full day on solar and its a over 3 year old battery.

My way of thinking is put as much solar panels as will fit on your roof, you can never have too much amps going into your batteries. Even in cloudy weather I get usable power with my 240 watts compared to what I get with the 120 watt panel I use to have. The 240 watt panel takes up almost the entire roof otherwise I would stick another 240 watts up there.
 

tgreening

Expedition Leader
This is stupid and nothing to do with your subject but.....when I read the thread title I couldn't help but imagine the first post starting off something like ..."And on the first day.....".

:)
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
^^
Let's not bring that debate into this guy's thread (at least not unless he explicitly asks for it :peepwall: )

But undercharging your batteries will definitely destroyed them. The reason I float them at 14.3 volts is because the bulk setting on some controllers are timed limited. If your battery is 12.3 volts, the controller pumps alot of amps into the battery to get it up to 14.4 volts, which is about 80 percent. Its suppose to remain at 14.4 volts for several hours to top it off to 100 percent. On my ecoworthy and other controllers, when it reaches 14.4 it automatically switches to float voltage which can be as low 13.3 volts. The battery never gets a full charge. If the float is set to 14.3 volts, you get your full charge every day. I been using these settings on my kinetik khc2000 102ah agm battery for about 2 years, the battery still reads 12.9 volts after the sun goes down after a full day on solar and its a over 3 year old battery.
That's interesting info.
I'd probably do the same thing as well if I found the controller can't hold Absorb for a few hours like the Morningstar units do.
Agreed, most any maintenance-free type battery (wet or AGM) should have no problem with it, but it can increase water use in a "low-maintenance" type battery (6V CG batteries are often of this type, as are specifically the "DC"-series Deka Marine Master units).

Is the firmware updatable on the Eco-Worthy? I'd be keeping an eye out for an update if so, since that's quite the major oversight to not have it remain in Absorb for some time before dropping to Float.
 

Joe917

Explorer
Pretty much covered so far but you are missing an essential component tom the system: a battery monitor.
I highly recommend the Trimetric monitor. There are others, all must use a shunt on the house battery negative, if you ground your house bank to the frame(I don't ) you must make the connection after the shunt. This is the only way to know how your system is working, a voltmeter is of very little use.
 

birdman86

New member
Pretty much covered so far but you are missing an essential component tom the system: a battery monitor.
I highly recommend the Trimetric monitor. There are others, all must use a shunt on the house battery negative, if you ground your house bank to the frame(I don't ) you must make the connection after the shunt. This is the only way to know how your system is working, a voltmeter is of very little use.

Hmm interesting, I haven't seen those in any of the reading I've done. I just assumed the controller would handle that stuff, weird that Renogy wouldn't have something on their site for that. And is a shunt just a means to connect more things to a battery post?

To answer the previous question, yep this system would be 100% independent from the vehicles electrical system, and I'd prefer keeping it that way so no grounding of the battery to the frame.

Side question, how long would you dare run a roof fan off the car battery? I'd like to get sleeping in the van ASAP which I means I won't have solar yet. But a guy needs fresh air!
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
A battery monitor is nice to have so you can always know what your battery's exact charge level is, however IMO it is not an absolute necessity if you just need to know whether you may or may not have enough juice to make it through the night.

I use a simple voltmeter.
I recall a voltmeter was on your list at one point... Provided it's accurate, and you do know how to interpret it's reading, it should be sufficient to keep tabs on the approximate charge level of your batteries. For example, when mine starts to dip below 12.1V while the fridge runs (or 12.3V w/o any load) I know the batteries are nearing 50%, so will try to ramp up energy conservation where possible. No, it's not as precise as having a monitor, but it doesn't have to be. The 50% rule on batteries is not hard & fast, to go a little below 50% once in a great while won't ruin your battery, but as was said, it should not be made a regular habit of. If you do find your batteries getting that low on regular occasion, then this indicates you need more battery capacity, more solar, or both (or to conserve more).

A shunt is a resistor that goes in-line with the (-) battery cable that creates a very small but precise fixed voltage drop that a battery monitor then uses to calculate how much current is flowing through the cable at any given time. It uses the amount & duration (and direction) of this current to calculate approximately how much power is stored within your battery (your battery's total capacity (among other things) will need to stored into the monitor's memory to facilitate this function).

As for the roof fan, if this is the 3-amp one you had listed before, I would not suggest running that overnight. If it has a Low speed setting though, then maybe it'll be fine, but not knowing it's exact draw on Low I couldn't say for sure if it'd be a problem.
 

Joe917

Explorer
Using a voltmeter alone is like driving without a gas gauge and getting out to bang on the side of the tank to check fuel level.
Voltage is only an accurate measure of SOC after the batteries rest for a few hours. In a system in use there is always current going in or out.
A voltmeter will show 14.8v during the bulk charge, is that 40%?, 80%?
A monitor will also keep track of how long since 100% charge, very important in battery life.
The shunt connects in line of the battery bank negative cable.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
U
A voltmeter will show 14.8v during the bulk charge, is that 40%?, 80%?
.


If 14.8V is the set point your batteries require for Absorb, then the batteries should be between 80-90% SoC at the time it reaches that point. After a few more hours @14.8V you should then be very near 100%, if not at 100%.

(this is for a bulk charge rate of approx 0.1C, or 20A going into a 200Ah bank)
 
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Joe917

Explorer
If 14.8V is the set point your batteries require for Absorb, then the batteries should be between 80-90% SoC at the time it reaches that point. After a few more hours @14.8V you should then be very near 100%, if not at 100%.

(this is for a bulk charge rate of approx 0.1C, or 20A going into a 200Ah bank)

Wrong. The battery bank could be at almost any state of charge and show 14.8 volts depending on the charge going in. 0.1C is also way off since the bulk charge rate for my batteries is 14.8volts at 25c.
The point is voltage as you have just shown is a poor indicator of SOC .(unless you rest the batteries).
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
Wrong. The battery bank could be at almost any state of charge and show 14.8 volts depending on the charge going in. 0.1C is also way off since the bulk charge rate for my batteries is 14.8volts at 25c.
The point is voltage as you have just shown is a poor indicator of SOC .(unless you rest the batteries).

********

I don't know the size of your batt bank, but I'll just assume that it's 250Ah for the purpose of asking this question...

So you use 81,250 watts of solar panels to charge that battery bank??
 

calicamper

Expedition Leader
********

I don't know the size of your batt bank, but I'll just assume that it's 250Ah for the purpose of asking this question...

So you use 81,250 watts of solar panels to charge that battery bank??

Could be ok but my house system only is 8,260 watts. But it supports filtering a 60,000 gallon pool 9-7pm and a 2800sqft house with a 7kwh plugin hybrid just fine. ;-)
 

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