tdesanto
Expedition Leader
I could use a little help with a tough decision. Please forgive the long explanation, but I’m trying to cover the whole picture here.
A recent trip involving steep climbs at high altitudes pulling the trailer has had me thinking about what to do next. Do I regear my differentials from 4.3’s to the only available option I’ve found: 4.9, or do I look into other vehicles that might handle the load better (both on highway and off-road).
I’m running 33” tires; whereas, stock on this vehicle is 31”. This has hurt my power a bit and then adding the trailer has put a strain on the drivetrain.
Off-road, the Montero actually did pretty well. Only when I was at high altitudes and attempting steep climbs did I notice an issue. I think this is mainly due to a low first gear (3.8). In fact, I almost didn’t make the climbs at all. Just barely, in first gear, at 12-1500 RPM’s and the engine felt like it would stall at any point. I could have walked faster up those hills, albeit, without carrying the trailer on my back. With the pedal to the floor, the engine just couldn’t go any faster than 1500 RPM’s.
On highway, for long steep climbs, I had to resort to 1st gear a lot just to make the climb. 2nd gear was almost useable in a lot of cases, but just not quite enough. I get the feeling that with re-gearing the differentials, that may be just enough to allow me the use of 2nd gear too. On less steep climbs on the highway, I might be able to stay in 4th or even 5th gear without having to run 3rd gear at 4500RPM’s just to maintain momentum. If I let the RPM’s drop below 3500, then I’d lose momentum and have to drop to 2nd gear.
New vehicle or re-gear to 4.9?
So, I’ve been looking at two other vehicles this week: Rubicon Unlimited and the H3. Both have their pros and cons. Both offer a couple items that my truck doesn’t have: 1) 4:1 transfer case (even more power off-road), 2) more articulation, 3) lockers (H3 rear locker; Rubicon front & rear). All three vehicles are almost the same length and width. Track width is also within 3 inches of each other. All three have almost the same payload capacity, with the H3 having the least. All three have almost the same turning radius and approach angle. Believe it or not, the Montero actually has the best approach angle and shortest wheelbase of all three, but at a price; it has the worst departure angle of all three at only 25 degrees vs. around 37-40 for the other two. Also, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to get a locker for the rear axle. It’s got a great LSD, and I’ve heard from other owners that the ARB front locker in combination with this hybrid LSD is a great combination. So, I can at least add the front locker at a later point.
The H3: On the plus side: quite a bit of clearance stock. 33” tires; same bolt pattern as my current wheels (these may just fit the trailer without having to buy new wheels and hubs, etc.) Good skid plate/ underbelly protection standard or available. Sliders available too. ARB bumper for the front is available too. It has the comfort and style (almost as comfortable as my current truck) and it has the V8. Towing capacity is slightly more than the Montero at 6000lbs. (vs. 5000lbs.), and power to weight ratio is the best of the three. Price right now is great. I can get one here with just about all the options for around $31K.
Cons: it’s a bit heavier than my vehicle (only by 370lbs) and the cargo space behind the middle row is the smallest of these three vehicles. I don’t like the short windows, but I could learn to live with those. Limited 3rd party support, and GM may look to discontinue it and or sell off the subsidiary.
The Rubicon:
Pros: Unlimited 3rd party support; bumpers/sliders/skid plates/etc. all available. Lift kits galore. Cargo space is actually adequate. This vehicle sacrifices rear seat legroom for more cargo space (the exact opposite of the H3). I can live with this and would actually prefer the cargo space. In contrast, the Montero actually has more legroom than the Jeep and has as much or more cargo space. Go figure. This vehicle is slightly lighter than the Montero (4340 vs. 4675 for mine and 5143 for the H3). Comes stock with 32” BFG MT’s. I bet this is plenty for what I need to do, especially since it has better articulation than what I’m used to. Again, the 4:1 transfer case will be great off-road and pulling the trailer while offroad. The 6-speed manual seems to have some great gear ratios too for compensating for the small engine (not so for the 4-speed A/T—see below).
Cons: It has practically the same engine. V6 with approx 200HP and 235-240 ft/lbs torque. So, I wouldn’t be getting an upgrade in power. Not as comfortable and not as refined. I didn’t care for a lot of the plastic interior. Kind of seemed cheap for a $34K vehicle. Some may call this a plus, since it’s more back to basics. On highway, it seemed to walk on me a little at highway speeds. I’ve only test driven one yesterday; so, this one could have been out of alignment or something strange. The 4-speed automatic doesn’t seem to offer as much power as my 5 speed does. Comparing gear ratios amongst all three vehicles, including the 6-speed offered for this model, the 4-speed has the least powerful ratios.
So, I’ve put together a spreadsheet that I hope will help. I’m looking for guidance on how much importance to place on the different drive ratios when comparing the vehicles. Comparing the Jeep to the Montero, since they almost weigh the same and have about the same engine, this seemed like the best way to judge which vehicle would work best for me in terms of pulling the trailer and climbing steep grades.
A few surprises I found: the Jeep with the 4-speed A/T had the worst ratios for 1st and 2nd gear for highway use; the H3 not far behind it, but it has the V8. The Jeep with the 6 speed had the best for off-road, much better than its 4-speed brother. And for on-highway use, it was the Montero that had the best ratios if I re-gear to 4.9’s and practically the same as the Jeep with the 4-speed if I were to stay at my current 4.3 R&P gears.
So, a couple assumptions to cover:
1) All vehicles have either 32” or 33” tires. So, I made no attempt to adjust for the difference. I’m assuming that these are close enough to call them equal.
2) Drive ratio formulas:
a. For 4-low: diff x transmission gear x transfer case
b. For high: diff x transmission gear
So, I’m grateful for any input you could provide. Let’s not get into a match of which vehicle is better. However, if there are some important items that I’ve missed, like a benefit or feature of a particular vehicle that you think would be important to mention, I’d like to hear it.
Thanks to any and all who take the time to read at least ½ of this and offer a suggestion.
Cheers, :beer:
Tony
A recent trip involving steep climbs at high altitudes pulling the trailer has had me thinking about what to do next. Do I regear my differentials from 4.3’s to the only available option I’ve found: 4.9, or do I look into other vehicles that might handle the load better (both on highway and off-road).
I’m running 33” tires; whereas, stock on this vehicle is 31”. This has hurt my power a bit and then adding the trailer has put a strain on the drivetrain.
Off-road, the Montero actually did pretty well. Only when I was at high altitudes and attempting steep climbs did I notice an issue. I think this is mainly due to a low first gear (3.8). In fact, I almost didn’t make the climbs at all. Just barely, in first gear, at 12-1500 RPM’s and the engine felt like it would stall at any point. I could have walked faster up those hills, albeit, without carrying the trailer on my back. With the pedal to the floor, the engine just couldn’t go any faster than 1500 RPM’s.
On highway, for long steep climbs, I had to resort to 1st gear a lot just to make the climb. 2nd gear was almost useable in a lot of cases, but just not quite enough. I get the feeling that with re-gearing the differentials, that may be just enough to allow me the use of 2nd gear too. On less steep climbs on the highway, I might be able to stay in 4th or even 5th gear without having to run 3rd gear at 4500RPM’s just to maintain momentum. If I let the RPM’s drop below 3500, then I’d lose momentum and have to drop to 2nd gear.
New vehicle or re-gear to 4.9?
So, I’ve been looking at two other vehicles this week: Rubicon Unlimited and the H3. Both have their pros and cons. Both offer a couple items that my truck doesn’t have: 1) 4:1 transfer case (even more power off-road), 2) more articulation, 3) lockers (H3 rear locker; Rubicon front & rear). All three vehicles are almost the same length and width. Track width is also within 3 inches of each other. All three have almost the same payload capacity, with the H3 having the least. All three have almost the same turning radius and approach angle. Believe it or not, the Montero actually has the best approach angle and shortest wheelbase of all three, but at a price; it has the worst departure angle of all three at only 25 degrees vs. around 37-40 for the other two. Also, I don’t think I’ll ever be able to get a locker for the rear axle. It’s got a great LSD, and I’ve heard from other owners that the ARB front locker in combination with this hybrid LSD is a great combination. So, I can at least add the front locker at a later point.
The H3: On the plus side: quite a bit of clearance stock. 33” tires; same bolt pattern as my current wheels (these may just fit the trailer without having to buy new wheels and hubs, etc.) Good skid plate/ underbelly protection standard or available. Sliders available too. ARB bumper for the front is available too. It has the comfort and style (almost as comfortable as my current truck) and it has the V8. Towing capacity is slightly more than the Montero at 6000lbs. (vs. 5000lbs.), and power to weight ratio is the best of the three. Price right now is great. I can get one here with just about all the options for around $31K.
Cons: it’s a bit heavier than my vehicle (only by 370lbs) and the cargo space behind the middle row is the smallest of these three vehicles. I don’t like the short windows, but I could learn to live with those. Limited 3rd party support, and GM may look to discontinue it and or sell off the subsidiary.
The Rubicon:
Pros: Unlimited 3rd party support; bumpers/sliders/skid plates/etc. all available. Lift kits galore. Cargo space is actually adequate. This vehicle sacrifices rear seat legroom for more cargo space (the exact opposite of the H3). I can live with this and would actually prefer the cargo space. In contrast, the Montero actually has more legroom than the Jeep and has as much or more cargo space. Go figure. This vehicle is slightly lighter than the Montero (4340 vs. 4675 for mine and 5143 for the H3). Comes stock with 32” BFG MT’s. I bet this is plenty for what I need to do, especially since it has better articulation than what I’m used to. Again, the 4:1 transfer case will be great off-road and pulling the trailer while offroad. The 6-speed manual seems to have some great gear ratios too for compensating for the small engine (not so for the 4-speed A/T—see below).
Cons: It has practically the same engine. V6 with approx 200HP and 235-240 ft/lbs torque. So, I wouldn’t be getting an upgrade in power. Not as comfortable and not as refined. I didn’t care for a lot of the plastic interior. Kind of seemed cheap for a $34K vehicle. Some may call this a plus, since it’s more back to basics. On highway, it seemed to walk on me a little at highway speeds. I’ve only test driven one yesterday; so, this one could have been out of alignment or something strange. The 4-speed automatic doesn’t seem to offer as much power as my 5 speed does. Comparing gear ratios amongst all three vehicles, including the 6-speed offered for this model, the 4-speed has the least powerful ratios.
So, I’ve put together a spreadsheet that I hope will help. I’m looking for guidance on how much importance to place on the different drive ratios when comparing the vehicles. Comparing the Jeep to the Montero, since they almost weigh the same and have about the same engine, this seemed like the best way to judge which vehicle would work best for me in terms of pulling the trailer and climbing steep grades.
A few surprises I found: the Jeep with the 4-speed A/T had the worst ratios for 1st and 2nd gear for highway use; the H3 not far behind it, but it has the V8. The Jeep with the 6 speed had the best for off-road, much better than its 4-speed brother. And for on-highway use, it was the Montero that had the best ratios if I re-gear to 4.9’s and practically the same as the Jeep with the 4-speed if I were to stay at my current 4.3 R&P gears.
So, a couple assumptions to cover:
1) All vehicles have either 32” or 33” tires. So, I made no attempt to adjust for the difference. I’m assuming that these are close enough to call them equal.
2) Drive ratio formulas:
a. For 4-low: diff x transmission gear x transfer case
b. For high: diff x transmission gear
So, I’m grateful for any input you could provide. Let’s not get into a match of which vehicle is better. However, if there are some important items that I’ve missed, like a benefit or feature of a particular vehicle that you think would be important to mention, I’d like to hear it.
Thanks to any and all who take the time to read at least ½ of this and offer a suggestion.
Cheers, :beer:
Tony
