hmmm, a real question for the experienced

GR8ADV

Explorer
Ok, I am not trolling here, nor am I questioning, but just asking questions. So here goes my first post here. LIkely a bit too long...

I have been a lurker for a while, but an adventurer for many many years. I have travelled across the US and Canada many times. As far north as the NWT in Canada, the Arctic Circle, and all over AK. Just got back from a Central America trek this month. All my travels are via a dual sport motorcycle, sometimes camping for a month or so, sometimes not. But looking not too far ahead into the future, I am thinking long and hard in the direction of some sort of an expedition vehicle for some future journeys. So I am trying to narrow the field of choices based on need vs want.

So with that intro behind us, although I just drool at the latest and greatest 'travel to the moon on wheels' vehicles, I have questions on the real need, and with the size and flexibility of some of the choices.

The thread that really got me thinking is the one where a person is building a GXV to travel in North America. I have been, not everywhere of course, but a great many places and many of them off road in strange and isolated places. But most places, in NA anyway, are accessible with a standard RV or camper. In AK and Northern BC for example, you can be behind a convoy of all sorts of campers and RV's on any of the roads up there including the Dempster, Daltan and Denali Highways, so no need for anything overly special up there. Ok I can see maybe a two year trip across Mongolia, and Russia, but in North and Central America I don't get it. Standard RV's and campers are all over the place from Death Valley to Prudhoe bay here in NA. A recent pic I saw said a million words and that was a MOG stuck in line behind 50 run of the mill campers waiting for a construction zone, or ferry or something. The places that would not be accessable to your std big RV, are areas where the road is too small for a big vehicle anyway, which leads me to my second question, size.

On my trip to Central America, many of the small towns (not the tiny villages off road in the mountains), but the smaller towns like say Tequilla in Mexico, Quiche in Guate for example, have roads that could no way accomodate these vehicles. Never mind the tiny towns off road where one would, I suspect, want to take these vehicles. In many ways, it seems reasonably contrary to the whole idea; kind of a conundrum. I would say the majority of places that I travelled on this trip one would be hard pressed to acccomodate anything over a Earthroamer Jeep.

So my questions are, where are you taking these that a regular RV or 4wd camper would crumble? And do you stick to major roadways and towns due to the size? So please, educate me on your experiences of where you go, have gone etc where/why your vehicle made it possible. Help me with my never quenching thirst for adventure travel. But don't tell my bike that I am shopping around...
 

howell_jd

Adventurer
Ultimately, as most of life's choices are, this is a personal choice.

Where do I go that an otherwise capable vehicle that is different than the one I drive would fail? No particular place probably. I'm not sure that is a fully descriptive answer nor do I think the question is particularly insightful for my situation - I don't think I've been limited by my choice.

I've taken my EarthRoamer into some fairly tight situations - rubbing rocks or getting rather close to other vehicles or buildings too - so I don't feel limited to big trails or even wide roadways. I do get to bring my family along too without any constraints on the princess factor - which can become significant (I travel with three women!):
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My truck has been multi-purpose suited as well. I am able to support my work travel and actually save money for the governent (how's that for stretching your tax dollar!). I don't require an airline ticket or a hotel room when I travel to support military training. I do realize a mileage benefit but at $0.51 per mile and the majority of my trips being within 1,000 miles you can immediately see the benefit of no flight or hotel costs; savings of several hundreds of dollars each trip.

I will say that my personal truck is quite thoroughly tested off-road too. It is well documented as the "Around the World" EarthRoamer. Some day when I am not travelling to other foreign sandy locations, I would like to drive to Baja as well as make a trip to Alaska but other ER's have already made these trips - I won't be breaking new ground there! I think the only places an ER hasn't been subjected to a field assessment are Africa, Greenland, Antartica...I don't think I'll be calling ExPo for a sponsorship but that's really not the point:
P9191380.jpg


My truck (and anyone could say this about their own vehicle) gets me to where I want to go with what is necessary for me to enjoy being there (for my family). Probably more important, it makes the experience from A to B very enjoyable - I think the journey is much more important than the destination but they go together nicely. It is very rewarding to hear my daughter laugh at how I got stuck in the sand last year and how a little bitty jeep had to help pull us out (another thread here about my Great Sand Dunes experience). Just recently, I discovered my wife "interviewed" my daughter following the extraction and they were just rolling at my "skills" and how it was like sailing over a rough sea! Memories like that are priceless...I could still have them in a different truck but my truck is special to me and my family.
P9191349.jpg


My little girl thinks of it as "her" truck and it is an extension of our home. She likes to go "upstairs" to draw things she sees out the front window:
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She gets to see life up close in a way that many of her friends don't:
P9181174.jpg

I carried her to see some bighorn sheep grazing and drinking from a stream next to some railroad tracks here (right off a state highway...not on a 4x4 trail)

We do visit with friends in RV camps:
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I would say this is the least common type of travel/camping we do though...still it works and these folks aren't sitting in an apartment lamenting how they never get out!

I have confidence in adverse weather (at least unusual for central Mississippi!):
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...and if we need a "support vehicle" during inclement conditions we're set:
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For me the choice was clear...in late 2007/early 2008 a SUBSTANTIAL portion of my savings "disappeared" and my aspirations of affording an ER eventually almost similarly evaporated. I chose to buy-now a used model and enjoy living. I haven't regretted it BECAUSE of the family opportunity AND the friends I've made with the fantastic folks at EarthRoamer.

I always like to mention that it is the time I spent at an ER Rally in 2009 that helped me most (personally) to "get home" following an unpleasant time in combat. The people I met from EarthRoamer are genuine friends to me...tough to maintain for a ever moving Army lifestyle but they are keepers in my opinion - the truck too!

Good luck on your own search for what is right...and hopefully your bike will accept an open relationship (my own mountain bike only occasionally pitches me off but that may not be the fault of the bike I am told!).

Best wishes! Find your dream and live it!

Jonathan
 

haven

Expedition Leader
Just about any Central American market town can be reached with a standard RV. These towns have regular service by delivery trucks and small buses, none of which have high clearance or 4x4.

Navigating off the main streets in any town can be quite difficult because the streets are narrow and the overhead clearance is limited by awnings and telephone wires. For example:

img_1520_std.jpg


If you plan to drive on small secondary roads, for example to explore parts of national parks not on the regular tourist route or to visit towns that are mere specks on the map, then a vehicle with high clearance and some means to recover if your vehicle gets stuck would be advisable.

Also remember that the farther away from the market towns you go, the smaller the vehicles you will encounter. It would be difficult for a pickup truck to help pull a big RV out of the ditch.
 

bajajoaquin

Adventurer
Also remember that the farther away from the market towns you go, the smaller the vehicles you will encounter. It would be difficult for a pickup truck to help pull a big RV out of the ditch.

Yes, it's good to keep in mind that four wheel drive is best used to get you out of trouble, not get you into it.
 

FusoFG

Adventurer
Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho all have plenty of places that are extremely difficult, risky and dangerous, if not impossible to visit in an ordinary RV.

They end up being some of prettiest and most isolated places in America.

And a 4 season capable expedition vehicle makes it possible to get to these places safely and to stay comfortably as long as you want.
 

dzzz

Why doesn't everyone doesn't live in a studio apartment and drive a Ford Fiesta? We could, but would rather not.

First there's durability.
RV's aren't made to be used months at a time moving over rough roads. I don't think better expo vehicles are extravagantly expensive. I think they're appropriate for the use. My question is why so many Americans accept the crap build quality of big RVs.

A good "live in" expo vehicle will be able to enter all towns that are visited by delivery trucks. There may be parts of towns that won't fit. But getting to the town is possible. Many expo campers carry two wheel vehicles.

I ain't living in a tent for months on end anymore. I'll skip the few places I can't get to due to size.

I do think the OP question is valid however. To do less traveling due to buying a too expensive or too big vehicle is silly. Horses for courses.
 

SRUPike

Observer
Jonathan,
Thank you so much for sharing such an incredible and well thought out post. And thank you for your service to this country. And your rig is one of the most well traveled larger rigs out there... ( I loved reading the adventures of ******** and Pip, inspired me to plan an expedition)

To the OP, to each his own. Yes I've built and could camp out of my VW Bug. In planning a long term expedition, would my marriage make it out of the continent, probably not. SO for me when it comes time to acquire/outfit my expedition vehicle, something that is big but the base is sturdy enough to take us where ever the road may lead. And for the boss (wife) and I it would be an Earthroamer or GXV. Now would I love to have a dual-sport with a sleeping roll I wish I could live that simple, it would be fun, but not for long-term travel.

Jon

Ultimately, as most of life's choices are, this is a personal choice.

+++

Good luck on your own search for what is right...and hopefully your bike will accept an open relationship (my own mountain bike only occasionally pitches me off but that may not be the fault of the bike I am told!).

Best wishes! Find your dream and live it!

Jonathan
 

sarconcepts

Adventurer
You know.. ..I'm not sure, gr8adv, if you're looking for a predetermined answer (you are posting this in the earthroamer, gxv, unicat area), but I'm a true believer in evolution. What I mean is, to naturally progress based on an order of events. When I was about 5, my dad took myself & my brothers camping pretty frequently (I'm not sure where he got the time) in a tent, two tents actually, one for my brother & me, one for himself, & I have fond memories of being up in Baxter state park in Maine, with bears roaming around. Eventually, like 7 or 8 years old, I remember us having a tent trailer, & camping for a couple years in that, then we moved up to a full 24' trailer with kitchen, bathroom, sleeping for 6 etc. We had that for many years & many more camping trips until I evolved into cigarette smoking & not liking my parents much (teen years). These memories are fond to me now, & I wouldn't trade them for an upgrade of any sort. Years later, after becoming a human again, I camped for years & multiple cross-country trips in a home-made soft top canopy on a Toyota, & wouldn't trade those years or that flexibility & freedom for anything, but eventually you need just a little bit more, so the next natural step was a four wheel camper on a Toyota, which was the Taj Mahal compared to my previous experiences, but once again life evolves & now I find myself building something even bigger & more capable. Things change, & don't think you can predetermine them. I personally wouldn't go from bike camping to earthroamer, they're two different animals, & you travel two different ways. Now earthroamer, gxv etc. are brilliant machines (& thanks to howell_jd for a brilliant perspective & his service as well), but going from 250 lbs to 17.950 lbs is a big change, & allows you different experiences & places. Do your time, & grow into it & most of all enjoy the time traveling between now & then.
huntoon may have sounded like he was joking, but a four wheel camper on a toyota is still light, nimble, easy to store (remember storage is also an issue) & most of all, a lot of fun. You'll soon outgrow it, & when you do, you will have figured out how an earthroamer or gxv fits into your life.(& how to pay for it)

The question is not 'do I really need this extreme of a vehicle to go places, but rather, what's it worth to you not to be able to get out now?
if you're single, who cares, if you have a family, it quickly becomes worth the ability to 'get out now'
bajajoaquin has it right,
Some of the best times of my single life were in this.. ..
img034.jpg
 

GR8ADV

Explorer
Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Wyoming, Montana and Idaho all have plenty of places that are extremely difficult, risky and dangerous, if not impossible to visit in an ordinary RV.

They end up being some of prettiest and most isolated places in America.

And a 4 season capable expedition vehicle makes it possible to get to these places safely and to stay comfortably as long as you want.

Interesting, do you have any specific locations and/or pics of where you have been in these states? What vehicle did you take? I have been all over these state, including ughhh Texas. I am very interested in where you have taken your beast. thanks!
 
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GR8ADV

Explorer
Great stuff everyone. Wow what a forum.

No it is not about sleeping on the ground or in the back seat of a pinto. Nor is it about keeping the wife happy, heck there luxo rigs out there for 1/3 the money that would make her feel right at home like in the Ritz. It is about what level of robustness and ability is really necessary for the travels you all actually do not what is in the company brochure. Heck thousands of people drive jeeps and live in the City, so I am cool with that, so maybe this is the same, just with one decimal point shifted.

Even as I read these posts I am not seeing many reasons to head into the large GXV, Unimog'esq direction, which maybe says a lot. Even in many searches, 90% of what I have seen (excluding promo shots of driving off road at 5 mph or sifting over wide open dunes) includes pavement, with the occasional gravel road or beach shot. Then again, many of us do cool stuff just because we can. (I speak from experience here, haha) Again, the hummer in the city concept.

I do get the idea of durability. My bike for example, a BMW Adventure, can be barrel rolled at 35 mph and ridden home, don't ask how I know this. But I assume you are talking 'long term' durability? And yes the idea of the ability to be off the grid for a period of time with a 1000 mile range is worth a lot to me.

Thanks and keep it commin.
 

GR8ADV

Explorer
Also remember that the farther away from the market towns you go, the smaller the vehicles you will encounter. It would be difficult for a pickup truck to help pull a big RV out of the ditch.

Wait what? Did I cross post into the Winnebago Forum? Or are we still talking about $1/4 million plus self contained, self sustainable rigs here with huge tires, 4wd, and dual winches??


All in good fun, I hear ya.
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
It's a good question. Stephen Stewart traveled over much of the world in a Mog expedition vehicle, generally in the company of others - some of whom were driving normal RVs.

According to him (or maybe it was Doug Hackney who said it...I can't recall offhand), a normal RV is a "good road" vehicle, and an expedition truck is a "bad road" vehicle. Neither are truly "off road" vehicles.

For long overland trips, the expedition truck offers a lot of advantages. For one, it is less likely to fall apart after a few thousand miles of washboard. For another, it's more secure.

He says, for the most part, a normal RV can do most of the world. He does recommend that they travel in groups, and also that if possible, they bring along a capable vehicle because sooner or later - they're gonna need it:

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Sometimes, even a Mog needs help:

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There are trade-offs. First is do you want to live "in" the vehicle or "around" the vehicle? If you're good to go with a tent, then get a bike or a Cruiser or Jeep and fit it out. If you want your own private toilet, ready and waiting whenever Montezuma's Revenge hits, then you need something bigger.

If you decide you want to live in the vehicle, the next question is how much time are you going to live in it? A few weekends a year? A two-week trip every other year? 3 years straight?

If you're going to be spending a lot of time living in it, and intend to travel a lot of miles on less than ideal roads - then it makes sense to spend the money for a well built expedition truck that won't fall apart or need new brakes every 1000 miles.

Sure, you could buy a stick-and-staple RV and run it till the wheels fall off and then buy another. You could do that a couple of times before you equal the cost of an expedition truck. But you're going to have to live with all the drawbacks while you do. You're going to have to change the flat tires, and try to figure out why the water tank (or the roof) is leaking, and all the other crap that -will- go wrong when you use a regular RV for extended duty on rough roads. Even expedition trucks will have problems under long term rough use - but they'll have a lot less problems.

It's a quality of life issue; How much and what sort of hassles are you willing to to put up with? Some might (and many do) feel that it's better to have a bigger truck and deal with the hassle of finding routes around low bridges rather than dealing with the hassle of a broken <fill in the blank> because the truck wasn't heavy duty enough.


Here's a must read page that covers most of the issues:

http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm


EDIT: And as for the money - it's like anything else. Some people will build their own and save money, some can afford the best. Either way, it's still a heavy duty truck chassis with a box on it.
 
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