How much winch do you need?

[AndrewP]

I have been pretty casual about winch size in the past and have seen numerous recoveries using only M8000s (which in my view is the minimum acceptable winch). A recent episode demonstrated how much pull you sometimes need.

I was out on the Hole in the Rock Trail, and down at the shores of Lake Powell on the Rincon spur trail. The shore of the lake was loose silty gravel/mud mix, that in general was drivable.

One of the guys with us in a loaded 80 series Land Cruiser got slightly stuck and had to be strapped out of the mud. No problem. He then got a little closer to the water to wash the previous sticky mud off. He made deep ruts and was almost instantly down to the frame rails.

I was above him on the bank and we hooked up my M12000 with a snatch block. Despite 24000 pounds of pull, a fresh battery and a running truck assisting, he just barely came out of the mud. Anyway, my point is; I would err on the side of too much winch, not too little.

If you look carefully in this pic, you can see the ruts going down to the water after the extraction, and the truck to the right with the RTT was the one extracted.

See if Ali's video will work...
http://picasaweb.google.com/alia176...landsMaze?feat=directlink#5468963466307813602

 

[dzzz]

I don't think we can take winch rating as, like, actual measurements. 24000lbs would rip the front off your truck.
I suspect a good electric winch is a couple thousand pounds continuous. That's like 10- 15 guys pushing an suv out of the mud.

Or to look at it another way, how much force does it take to drag your vehicle, with all wheels locked, over dirt?

 

[Metcalf]

Anything is going to be better than nothing. Everyone can't afford, or needs, a super huge twin motor hydraulic winch with enough line to be a fishing reel.....

FAR too many times I have seen people stall the winch, bend the winch mount, or rip the winch mount off the vehicle because they are not experienced enough to know when enough is enough.....

If you have vehicle about 5000-7000lbs, you rig up for recovery, you start pulling with your 9000lb winch, tension comes in, the winch slows WAY down, and the vehicle isn't moving.....STOP!! This is the time to break out the shovel. You have a shovel right? Or maybe you need to move some rocks. Or jack the vehicle up. I think a lot of people think that having a winch means you have some magic means of recovery that will get you out of anything. It doesn't.....

My opinion is that you should have a well rounded recovery kit and THEN a winch. A winch doesn't do you much good if you don't have the equipment to use it properly.

I think a 8000-9500lb winch is good for anything up to a full size diesel American truck. At that point I would suggest finding something in the 10000-12000lb range. You can get a decent 8000lb winch now for like $300 so I don't see the need to run anything smaller unless your an ultralight vehicle or fighting some tight space requirements.

Also remember that generally the more powerful the winch the heavier it is. I don't advise anyone to install big heavy bumpers and winches on the front of there vehicles. Its just too hard on the front axle and suspension.

 

[dzzz]

hmm, fishing reel. How would casting work?

You poo poo hydraulics, but it works much better. How long will you keep power on a stalled or near stalled electric winch? A couple of seconds. A hydraulic winch? Until the vehicle runs out of fuel. It's also easy to control pressure and flow on hydraulic. Heavy electric winches are made because people will buy them, not because they are a particularly good way to put force on a line. That's why electric is only seen on personal vehicles.
And this shovel business. That not only requires carrying a shovel, but getting out and using it. And it's hand powered. Like anyone is going to use something like that.

 

[Metcalf]

I don't have anything against hydraulic. I do think they are impractical for most vehicles. I think that most people can use a conventional simple electric winch 99.9% of the time.

 

[michaelgroves]

This thread is in dire danger of being hijacked into hydraulic versus electric! I think suffice it to say that the answer to "how powerful a winch do you require?" won't differ much between hydraulic and electric.

IMO, bigger isn't essential, but bigger is more convenient. That is to say, you can always carry enough rigging (extension ropes, snatch blocks, shackles, etc). to supply you with as much pulling force as you need, regardless of how puny your winch is. But it is nice to be able to just do a simple hook-up on a really powerful winch, and job done.

 

[dzzz]

I don't have anything against hydraulic. I do think they are impractical for most vehicles. I think that most people can use a conventional simple electric winch 99.9% of the time.

Same weight and cost as better electric winches. $800-$1000, 80 to 100 pounds. At least on the models made to work on power steering hydraulics. The milemarker 18K is probably the premier lightweight hydraulic winch, but it's priced very high likely due to availability (being put into humvees).

 

[Metcalf]

One of my next projects at work is a 40 ton capstan hydraulic winch with about 5000' of 1 1/4" cable on an independent low tension spooling drum I think we are building two of them at the same time.

 

[dzzz]

Sounds like a marine application. Tell them you need to make a scale model first and use it on your unimog project.

 

[Metcalf]

Industrial pipeline application

I keep trying to snag a free winch from work, all of them are a little big though

 

[Metcalf]

Don't think I wouldn't consider a hydraulic winch on my dodge. I have a 6-bolt SAE PTO port on the drivers side of the transmission with tons of room since the driveshaft and exhaust run down the passenger side.

edit: to keep this thread on topic. Even with my dodge being 6500-8000lbs depending on load I would still only run a 10K winch be it hydraulic or electric. I have had my eye on the smittybilt 10K comp winch with synthetic winch line and aluminum hawse for $550. I don't think you can get more winch for the money.

 

[BigAl]

---I'm not sure that the experts who say "you need 1.5x vehicle weight" understand the physics

I'll bet a large percentage don't understand physics, but what they do have is real world experience. If you stick a 6k truck in the mud. You will be happier with a 12K winch than with an 8K. Maybe you could use the physics book for traction :ylsmoke:

 

[dzzz]

Found this. No idea how accurate.


Suggested reading

Vehicle Recovery
A practical manual for the Heavy-vehicle driver fleet operator and recovery specialist

R J Grice

Pub. Newton and Butterworth.

Type of surface Pull required to move

Road 1/25th Vehicle weight
Grass 1/7th ""
Gravel 1/5th ""
Soft Sand 1/4 ""
Shallow Mud 1/3rd ""
Bog 1/2 vehicle weight

Then you need to concider gradient factor.

Rule of thumb 1/60th Of Vehicle weight for every 1 degree of slope, up to 45 degrees, above this angle add the whole weight of the vehicle.

eg. Thirty ton Casualty up a 30 degree slope, Shallow mud surface.

Grade resistance for 30 degrees 30 x 1/60 X30 = 15 Tons

Surface resistance 30 x 1/3 = 10 Tons

Total pull required 15 + 10 = 25 Tons.

 

[cocco78]

I had a 3500lb winch on my old Jeep YJ years ago. It didn't pull hard enough to recover the Jeep on its own, but it put enough tension on the Jeep it was usually enough to get out unless it was really hung up. Now I have an 8000lb warn on my TJ that weighs around 4700lbs. I've only stalled it once that I remember, but I have had some real hard pulls I had to let it cool down. I think tho a 9000lb may be the way to go.

 

[timmer2008]

a working load rating between 1.5 and 2 times the gross weight of your vehicle for recreational vehicle self recovery.