Learn to Sail?

casioqv

Dr. Diesel
There is no compression post to carry the mast to the hull, it's supported on the deck. The deck stays, those metal straps that anchor supporting mast lines to the boat are a weak point of trailer sailors, they attach to the hull and generally that area isn't built up to hold on for heavy weather sailing. But, on lakes, bays and coastlines, it can certainly be a safe boat.

I have to disagree- The Sage 17 is not designed or marketed as a bluewater offshore sailor, but it is built more than heavy duty enough to handle it, and I do sail mine offshore in heavy weather with storm sails with no issues. The entire rig is probably approximately 8x the strength necessary to meet bluewater sailing standards. I own the prototype Sage 17 and am friends with the designer, whom I bought it from.

The deck is an extremely thick carbon fiber arch, that is much much stronger than the compression post system you will find on any other small sailboat. The arch is my favorite design feature, because it means you have an unobstructed queen sized bunk, something you won't even find on most 30 foot boats.

Most small sailboats like Catalina 22s, especially if raced hard will see cracking around the ends of the compression post- not so with the arch system on a Sage 17. I race mine hard, and crank down the backstay hard. Keep in mind this is also only a 1300lb boat- the forces on the rigging are proportional to the displacement, and relative to the forces it can actually experience in heavy weather, all of the rigging is actually stronger than what you will find on a big blue water boat. Every part in the rig can easily hold double the entire boat displacement. Compare to, for example, the famously heavy built Westsail 32 with 9/32" rigging - that is only about 1/4 as strong relative to the displacement as a Sage 17s rig.

I crane launch my Sage 17 from the cabin top mounted chainplates, and each chainplate can easily hold the full boat weight with no deflection, gel-coat cracking, etc. The deck arch system as I mentioned is extremely thick- and the deck is both through bolted and bonded to the hull with large bolts at short intervals, making deck attachments as strong as direct hull attachments, unlike other small trailerable boats. It also has a 42% ballast ratio- also in the range of what you will see on heavy bluewater boats (the Westsail 32 is only 36%) making it very stiff and stable in high winds.

The Montgomery 15 is basically the same design as the Sage 17, with the same arch system, and was sailed to Hawaii from San Diego (see the book "Little Breeze to the West") and encountered some heavy weather on the way.

I have zero concerns about the rig strength for offshore sailing in a Sage 17, but the cockpit is a bit too large for a bluewater design and drains too slow- I did increase the size of the drains substantially on mine, but I still wouldn't cross oceans without, e.g. adding a large foam block to shrink the cockpit volume. The transom hung rudder also needs rope stops added to protect it from slamming if hove to in heavy weather, and the cockpit hatch will take on some sea spray under the leading edge (just a comfort issue really).

Like I said, it's not a bluewater boat, but it is heavier built and more seaworthy than really any of the ultra light sportboats that are popular for racing to Hawaii like the Moore 24, Express 27, etc. Not the right boat design for the job, but it is built heavy duty, and won't actually physically fail from fatigue in heavy weather like most small trailerable sailboats would.
 
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casioqv

Dr. Diesel
The Sage 17 prototype behind our Touareg overlander - it is light enough the Touareg can tow it through sand offroad, for sailing in some remote places
img_1178-1-jpg.787071


And the smaller Montgomery 15 (same designer, and similar design), this is actually towing and camping offroad in sand in the Mojave desert on the way back from a sailboat race
img_0975-copy-jpg.768040
 
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dstefan

Well-known member
I would also like to look into getting a play boat of my own
Lot’s of sailers here with good experience. However, it seems like your desire to learn and presumably have fun is falling behind.
FWIW, I grew up sailing in the Keys on 14 and 16’ Hobie Cats. I have also crewed a bit on larger boats and sailed the Catalina day sailers in FL as well as some experience in small fast quasi racing boats (Lasers).

Bottom line — IMHO small boats are what you want to learn on. Even the 20’+ class Catalina is probably overkill at first, and to learn. The Hobie cats are tons of fun and unlike any of the others you can tip them over and right them easily. Just be aware that the two hulls make them a bit harder to bring about, though you’ll learn plenty. You can hike a 14’ up on one pontoon with one adult. The 16’ you probably could with a kid or two added depending on size and winds. They are the most fun boats. Lasers are a blast too and more maneuverable. Forget the Sunfish types except for maybe a quick rental and first lesson.
 

rcintx

Adventurer
Great information in this thread and really appreciate everyone's input. I am exploring all the avenues and things mentioned. I am hopeful to take a couple of basic courses for certification between now and early next summer. I also stumbled on a 14' boat a couple of hours away that I am going to go take a look at. It needs some work but is all there. Looks like a fun winter project that I could complete and play on next summer. It is basically free (minus the 3 hour round trip to pick it up). I know, free boat... I am sure it will cost a lot more than I anticipate and take a lot more time but I like projects. My self-diagnosed ADD doesn't allow me to sit around much anyway. It is a Coleman Holder 14 by Hobie. This is not it, but the same boat - restored. I'll try to get a photo of the actual boat I can upload.

update-on-my-hobie-holder-14-mk2-project-v0-dxj54pejc7sb1.jpg
 

Ozarker

Well-known member
Free boats are generally the most expensive.

As a kid, I was caught in high winds as a storm brewed on the lake in a Sunfish. I was hiked out and full sail, there was an old fisherman in about a 14 foot aluminum fisher with an outboard. He had it wound out beating waves trying to get to the dock. His eyes got big and his mouth dropped open watching me pass him, skimming the water!
 

rcintx

Adventurer
Free boats are generally the most expensive.

As a kid, I was caught in high winds as a storm brewed on the lake in a Sunfish. I was hiked out and full sail, there was an old fisherman in about a 14 foot aluminum fisher with an outboard. He had it wound out beating waves trying to get to the dock. His eyes got big and his mouth dropped open watching me pass him, skimming the water!
I figure that will turn out to be right. I wasn't really looking for a project (nor have I informed by bride of said project) but I like the look of it and if it floats and gives me a summer of fun without costing me too many dineros I think it could be worth it. Maybe something better will pop up between then and now and persuade me away from the project boat.

I can imagine the look on his face as you fly by. ;)
 

dstefan

Well-known member
Great information in this thread and really appreciate everyone's input. I am exploring all the avenues and things mentioned. I am hopeful to take a couple of basic courses for certification between now and early next summer. I also stumbled on a 14' boat a couple of hours away that I am going to go take a look at. It needs some work but is all there. Looks like a fun winter project that I could complete and play on next summer. It is basically free (minus the 3 hour round trip to pick it up). I know, free boat... I am sure it will cost a lot more than I anticipate and take a lot more time but I like projects. My self-diagnosed ADD doesn't allow me to sit around much anyway. It is a Coleman Holder 14 by Hobie. This is not it, but the same boat - restored. I'll try to get a photo of the actual boat I can upload.

update-on-my-hobie-holder-14-mk2-project-v0-dxj54pejc7sb1.jpg
That looks to be a great learning boat and its hard to beat the price plus getting a winter project! I like that you’ve got both a main and a jib sail. Learning with both will translate well to a bigger boat if you want one later.
 

rcintx

Adventurer
Well... The Holder 14 found a new owner before I could get to it. That is OK! I think it might have been more of a project than I realistically could handle right now. The search continues...
 

yamaha225

Member
I have a little bit of sailing experience but not a lot, so I want to chime in from a place not a lot farther along than yours. I originally started doing some sailing on sunfish in Boy Scouts. They’re a ton of fun, but definitely a “bathing suit” boat. I then actually worked for a gentleman in high school who owned a 50’ Beneteau. I worked for him helping to maintain the boat, but then also got to sail with him a few times on the weekend. It was also a ton of fun, but obviously way more than you want to start out with.

Also in high school I built what is referred to online as a “Puddle Duck Racer”. It’s a very simple 8’ long plywood boat design. They are pretty popular and have entire racing classes devoted to them. There have even been some brave souls who have taken them on some pretty ambitious trips. They’re super, super simple and cheap to build and maintain and I think could be a pretty easy entry point for you to learn the basics and then graduate to something bigger. Because of the rectangular hull shape, even though they’re only 8’ long, you can still comfortably have two people aboard (maybe three if they’re small).

They aren’t the fastest thing in the world since you’re essentially sailing a bathtub, but they’re a ton of fun and great to learn with. They’re also much dryer than a sunfish so you can sail them in a wider variety of weather.
 

rcintx

Adventurer
I have a little bit of sailing experience but not a lot, so I want to chime in from a place not a lot farther along than yours. I originally started doing some sailing on sunfish in Boy Scouts. They’re a ton of fun, but definitely a “bathing suit” boat. I then actually worked for a gentleman in high school who owned a 50’ Beneteau. I worked for him helping to maintain the boat, but then also got to sail with him a few times on the weekend. It was also a ton of fun, but obviously way more than you want to start out with.

Also in high school I built what is referred to online as a “Puddle Duck Racer”. It’s a very simple 8’ long plywood boat design. They are pretty popular and have entire racing classes devoted to them. There have even been some brave souls who have taken them on some pretty ambitious trips. They’re super, super simple and cheap to build and maintain and I think could be a pretty easy entry point for you to learn the basics and then graduate to something bigger. Because of the rectangular hull shape, even though they’re only 8’ long, you can still comfortably have two people aboard (maybe three if they’re small).

They aren’t the fastest thing in the world since you’re essentially sailing a bathtub, but they’re a ton of fun and great to learn with. They’re also much dryer than a sunfish so you can sail them in a wider variety of weather.
I googled "Puddle Duck Racers" and my first thought was "oh man, thats an ugly little boat." The more I spent looking at them the more I like them. I went down a YouTube rabbit hole and watched many build videos. I've got the skills, tools, and space to build that. That may be exactly the project I need this winter. Thanks for sending!
 

yamaha225

Member
I googled "Puddle Duck Racers" and my first thought was "oh man, thats an ugly little boat." The more I spent looking at them the more I like them. I went down a YouTube rabbit hole and watched many build videos. I've got the skills, tools, and space to build that. That may be exactly the project I need this winter. Thanks for sending!
They are a bit ugly at first but they’re super cool! They also sail better than their looks would indicate. If you do end up building one, definitely put up a thread about it! I’d love to watch a build of one.
 

rcintx

Adventurer
You got it. Trying to finish a couple of projects on the house and clear a little room in the shop but I do plan to building one.
 

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