Need a little help

deadly99

Explorer
The time has come for a second battery in my truck (Fridge, etc). Hoping some of the electro gurus can recommend a setup for me.

The ask

A second battery I can mount in the back of my pickup (truck has a cap on it). I would also like to add a solar panel to the roof of the truck to ensure the batterry is always being charged (when camped for a few days). Would like the truck to charge the battery in the back when the truck is running.

So what says the collective? Whats the best versus whats affordable?


Thanks you in advance

Ted
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
The standard approach is a relay triggered by D+. It connects the aux to starter. Thus charging while driving. If your alternator is under 13.8V, you will see minimal charging this way, especially if you don't use bigger cable.

Other options in order of cost are, Voltage sensing relays (vsr), and Dc-Dc changers.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Lots of info buried here and the 12v forum.

 
Ted,

The simplest thing you can do is install a manual battery selector switch of the type you'll see in boats that have more than one battery...they're cheap and do the job, but you have to do yours and remember to switch to combine when driving and separate when camped (so you don't run your starting battery down). The next option would be, as was previously mentioned, to install a power relay that would energize when your engine is running (or ignition is switched on) and combine the two batteries for charging while underway. Obviously, this takes you having to remember to operate the manual switch out of the equation.

In either of the two cases above, your solar panel/charge controller would only be connected to your Auxiliary battery and can be considered separately.

A key aspect to this, as luthj mentioned, is that you need to determine what the charge voltage is for your vehicle and size the wiring from your starting battery to your aux battery appropriately. Appropriately meaning large enough to not only handle the amperage when charging, but also to have low enough resistance that the voltage drop in the cable when charging isn't so great as to slow your charge rate to next to nothing. In my case, with a 2013 Silverado 2500HD (diesel), my charge voltage is typically around 14.4v, but I hear that a lot of trucks max out in the 13.8V range. You need to measure yours before you go much further.

I ran 6ga wires for both pos (fused) and neg from one of my starting batteries (truck has two, being a diesel) to the power jack in the front of the truck bed where the camper plugs in. From there, inside the camper, the factory wiring is 8ga to the rear of the camper where the battery is located. Charging while driving took a while due to the voltage drop in the wiring when the battery was drawing the heaviest (highest amperage) charging load. To make matters worse, while traveling, I pretty much had to run my original Norcold refrigerator off DC instead of LP...and on DC, it drew more than 10A pretty much continuously...further dropping the voltage/current available for charging the battery. Now I have a compressor based refrigerator that only draws 3.7A on a 30% duty cycle under normal usage, more like 25% overnight when it's not being opened...and a 100Ah Lithium battery instead of the lead-acid battery that was standard. I now have 2x the useable power and it charges much faster, whether from the truck, solar or the camper internal charger when on shore power.

As for solar, a lot will depend on your camping scenarios...how long will you be in one place, are you in desert, forest, do you park in the shade if available, is it predominantly sunny or cloudy. Unless you can get 4-5 hours of clear sun per day, 100watts of solar will probably not replace the power your fridge uses in a day. Mine typically uses 300-450 watt/hours per day, depending on ambient temps and how often I'm in it. A 100W panel with a decent MPPT controller, clear skies with full sun for the whole day might get you 500 watt hours of production into your battery, depending on where you are, geographically and time of year. On a mostly cloudy day, you'd be lucky to get 20% of that. If your truck is in the shade with a panel mounted on it...same thing, 5% to 10% of max production. For that reason, I only have one panel mounted on my camper roof and 3 available to sit out in the sun on an extension cord if I have a good shady place to park and a sunny spot available. If I'm parked in the sun, I'll just put them all up on the roof until I move again. I like to keep my options open!

Lot's to consider, but a key is having some DATA...knowing what your loads are, your usage and planning accordingly.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Generally speaking, a roof mounted (flat) solar panel(s) should be in the 150W minimum for powering a larger fridge continuously. Larger for cloudy conditions. Smaller fridges could get by with less sometimes. With other charge sources, you can do with less.

For alternator charging, I would suggest an automatic relay (such as blue seas 7610, or 7601) https://amzn.to/2Xo1S80. These are voltage sensing relays that will close automatically when either battery gets a charge, and are a bit easier to wire in sometimes.
 

hour

Observer
I also have a second battery in my truck bed and solar on the camper shell's roof. I've just relied on the 200w up top to charge the two lead acids I've had in there, because I hate running wire - especially thick wire. And I have a smart alternator and apparently finnicky charging system on a '17 F150 - read reports to make it work right I have to disable the 'smart' functionality, screws up auto start/stop, just nothing appealing about the threads I've read in accomplishing this on newer F150s.

ANYWAY, I'd just get one of the new Renogy DC-DC chargers and use that. Run smaller wire like other DC-DC chargers and for 1/3-1/5th the price of redarc/sterlings. 20 or 40 amps (depending on the renogy unit) is more than enough for me though, even if relay based systems can do a lot more.

TL;DR - consider this for an easier installation, cheaper than almost every other option (minus complete DIY isolator setup), no need to run 2 gauge PITA wire to the back.
 

Peter_n_Margaret

Adventurer
There is another alternative.
Simply wire the 2 batteries in series (the second could be under the bonnet, or in the back), have the solar charging both and run the accessories (including the fridge) via a suitably sized low voltage cut out that switches the accessories off before the voltage gets too low for safe cranking.
Suitable low voltage cut outs can be purchased for under $10, you get more power available for the accessories and both driving and the solar charges both batteries.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
 

hour

Observer
There is another alternative.
Simply wire the 2 batteries in series (the second could be under the bonnet, or in the back), have the solar charging both and run the accessories (including the fridge) via a suitably sized low voltage cut out that switches the accessories off before the voltage gets too low for safe cranking.
Suitable low voltage cut outs can be purchased for under $10, you get more power available for the accessories and both driving and the solar charges both batteries.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

I know you meant parallel hah. That's probably not a bad idea though, for all the time people have spent looking at these isolator threads trying to figure it all out. If you have a pretty consistent load, like you primarily run a fridge, maybe charge some phones, and run an inverter occasionally for a brief period of time, why not?

Something about putting batteries in permanent parallel that are like 15 feet of wire apart sounds unappealing, I might be wrong. I'd also assume with batteries in permanent parallel, you'd have to ensure they're identical. And that makes me think additional challenges in achieving a deep discharge setup. Like you wouldn't want a deepcycle battery as your starting battery. And dual purpose batteries are largely considered to be crapola from my research and experience.
 

Peter_n_Margaret

Adventurer
Oops yes - parallel.....
Something about putting batteries in permanent parallel that are like 15 feet of wire apart sounds unappealing, I might be wrong. I'd also assume with batteries in permanent parallel, you'd have to ensure they're identical.
Not at all, nice if they are the same chemistry, but different sizes are fine. It is also possible to have Lithium and AGM (for example) in parallel provided the charging voltages do not exceed the max for the Li. Not perfect, but they will play happily together. Each will do what each does best.
And I use a 120Ah Fullriver HGL standby battery for my crank. It is 9 years old and still OK.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome
 

hour

Observer
Oops yes - parallel.....
Not at all, nice if they are the same chemistry, but different sizes are fine. It is also possible to have Lithium and AGM (for example) in parallel provided the charging voltages do not exceed the max for the Li. Not perfect, but they will play happily together. Each will do what each does best.
And I use a 120Ah Fullriver HGL standby battery for my crank. It is 9 years old and still OK.
Cheers,
Peter
OKA196 motorhome

Thanks for the clarification, guess I picked up somewhere that charging two dissimilar batteries in parallel is okay but discharging dissimilar batteries in parallel requires additional considerations.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Yeah, you need to consider how the battery profiles will react with regards to having two in parallel for charge or discharge. Lithium batteries won't accept any significant charge current below 13.4V. Lead will accept some current at this level, so the lead battery will have a small draw (less than 0.5% of C) when in parallel with a fully charged lithium phosphate battery. During discharge the lithium will supply basically all the current, up until it drops below about 12.7V, at which point the lead battery starts to contribute. The LFP pack will be 90% discharged at around 11.6V, at which point the lead battery will be below 50%. Then you recharge the combined bank. Depending on the MFG, both batteries may be fine charging at around 14-14.4V (lower is better for LFP).

In fact, on sailing boats, putting a small lead battery in parallel with the main LFP bank is common. The lead battery rarely supplies any power (except during deep LFP discharge). It is there to provide backup in case of very cold weather (LFP can't charge), or if the LFP bank drops out due to fault, over/under voltage, cell fault etc. The lead battery prevents a voltage sag/surge, and protects sensitive lifesaving marine electronics.
 

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