New leaf pack vs upgrading stock leafs

[some_dude]

I approached a local spring shop that was recommended to me about having a complete spring pack built. My idea was to get something like the All Pro expedition set but keep the money local.

Their suggestion was that they re-arc the stock springs and add another leaf to get the lift and load capability I want. Their opinion was that it would provide similar performance as the All Pro set and that they didn't feel that using lots of thinner leafs was any real advantage over using less thick leafs.

So, it's basically a 10 leaf pack vs a re-arc'd 5 leaf pack.

Opinions?

 

[1911]

In my experience, re-arching springs works OK if the springs are not too old and beat already, and the spring shop is a good one and knows what they're doing. Really old springs usually sag again at some point after they have been re-arched. Helper (additional) leaves work, just remember that with leaf springs particularly there is always a trade-off between load-carrying capability, lift, and ride comfort. A really good spring shop can give you a nice ride and decent flex for a single given weight; the problem is picking that weight - do you pick a weight when it is fully-loaded for overlanding and risk a rough ride when it is not full, or less than that and risk some sag when it is fully loaded? The choice is up to you; be as accurate as possible when adding up all the extra weight you may be planning for, including your bumpers, winch, roof rack, jerry cans, tools, spares, etc.

I have had custom spring packs made by Alcan, and by a local shop. The local shop ones were as good as the Alcans, but it's a real good, real old shop with tons of experience.

 

[p nut]

The ride isn't going to be nice as a good NEW spring pack from Deaver or Alcan. Or even OME Dakar. I'd go new.

 

[some_dude]

The stock leaf pack is 4 months/8000km old.

 

[downhill]

There is more to consider than load carrying capacity. I have never been a fan of added leaves alone for trucks that are loaded way above stock or used offroad. The reason is that it does nothing to strengthen the main leaves that must support the weight. When you buy a set like the All Pros, they have double main springs and a full military wrap at the eyes. They also include an additional half leaf to counter axle wrap. The whole spring assembly is much stronger and safer.

I would not do a re-arch either on a truck that I plan to take into the back country. Steel fatigues over time, and re-arching does nothing to repair that. That's why older leaves especially often lose the new arch quickly. The springs could be more prone to breakage with the flexing of off offroad use.

There can be differences in the leaf design that will affect the ride, but in general I have found that more leaves give a more compliant ride than fewer leaves.

As stated above, figuring out your true rear axle weight is key to getting the right spring build. I ran air bags on my truck till I got things sorted out, and then ordered springs based on an actual scale measurement. In my case the All Pro Expos were a good match off the shelf, so I did that instead of going the custom route. I have been very happy with the Expos's ability to handle extra weight while delivering a nice street ride. I log a lot of highway, so that was important. Again, they would only be good if they matched your weight. The Expos virtually eliminated the axle wrap, and they maintained proper pinion angles so I had no vibration problems. All I had to do after the install was a small shim at the CB to get perfect driveline angles. Added leaves are notorius for causing pinion angle problems. Read the vibration threads and a disproportionately high number of the problems are with added leaves.

If I were going the custom route I would order from Alcan. They seem to have a good record of building to weight accurately. That's not to say that other brands aren't good too, but I like Alcan. I have not tried Deavers, but from what I have read they seem to be the king of compliance

I understand the appeal of using a local shop. I have done that in the past with good results because I had acccess to a very good shop. There is something to be said though for using a vendor with experience with Tacomas. The pinion angle thing I mentioned is one. Based on what the shop recommended for you, I think I would go with one of the known Taco vendors.

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

A 10 leaf pack does not perform the same as a 5 leaf pack. If they are saying it does then do yourself a favor and just walk away. A 10 pack leaf set will not provide the flex that the 5 pack will. Also off road your more likely to crack thinner leafs. The ones that Marlin used to sell had thin spacers to reduce friction in-between the leaves.
You didn't say what these are going on but I'd say the All Pro are great for a Toyota. I had the 5in lift kit from Marlin Crawler when he was still selling the kits. It rode great both on and off road.

 

[Mrknowitall]

A 10 leaf pack does not perform the same as a 5 leaf pack. If they are saying it does then do yourself a favor and just walk away. A 10 pack leaf set will not provide the flex that the 5 pack will. Also off road your more likely to crack thinner leafs.

I think you have that backwards- More thin leaves can flex farther w/o reaching the elastic limit of the individual leaf. That means there will be more flex available with thinner leaves. Sure a pack of 5 thick leaves will be stronger than one with 5 thin leaves, but there's a reason high-end springs are made of many thin leaves, while cheapo springs have 4-5 leaves.

At the end of the day ANY metal spring (torsion, coil, or leaf) is really only good at supporting one pre-determined load, while maintaining desired ride hight and suspension performance. Good spring shops, like Deaver and Alcan can steer you pretty close if you provide them with the expected axle weight and needed ride height. If your Tacoma is both a DD and expedition/travel/hauling rig, you have to make some compromise on empty ride or loaded height/handling. If it's only a part-time vehicle, just set yourself up to handle GVW loads.

 

[TEJASYOTA]

Theses are good reference info on leaf suspension.
http://www.suspensionspecialists.com/tech0004.html

http://www.alcanspring.com/faqs.htm

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

I think you have that backwards- More thin leaves can flex farther w/o reaching the elastic limit of the individual leaf. That means there will be more flex available with thinner leaves. Sure a pack of 5 thick leaves will be stronger than one with 5 thin leaves, but there's a reason high-end springs are made of many thin leaves, while cheapo springs have 4-5 leaves.

A ten leaf will have less flex of available in one direction than the 5 leaf pack, while having more in the other. The pyramid of the 5 leaf pack isn't as rigid as one would have on a ten leaf pack.

Look at leaf spring packs being offered by reputable companies for off road driving. None incorporate 10leaf spring packs for a light weight vehicle. Spring construction plays a big part in the quality of the ride.

 

[FellowTraveler]

No matter what you decide require graphite paint on the leafs it allows for easy movement of springs and beats back rust..........:ylsmoke:

 

[bat]

X2

I'd say the All Pro are great for a Toyota

I have had my set since day one, still going strong and well worth it.

 

[Clutch]

Stock Toyota springs are fairly weak to begin with, re-arching will only make them fatigue even faster.

From personal experience, I have broken every set of stock springs on every Toyota I have owned, and the same with all of my friends that own Toyotas.

I have even repaired the stock springs just to have them break again.

Spend the extra money and go with a new spring pack. You don't have to get a 10 pack either, 8 or 9 pack might work for you, talk it over with the spring company
to see what will work for your needs.

I am currently running OME Heavies, the ride is a bit rough when unloaded, but I have yet to break them. So I haul 25 gallons
of water to smooth out the ride for daily "unloaded" use.

 

[some_dude]

Thanks for all the replies. You guys are confirming what I thought but its good to hear it from other people. The price difference isn't huge so I'll be going with an aftermarket set.

I plan on sacrificing unloaded ride. The truck is used as a truck and it hasn't been completely unloaded since the day after the day I bought it.

One of the big things for me is some sort of anti-wrap capability. How effective is an anti-wrap leaf like the one creatures in the All Pro set?

 

[HillbillyfromAL]

I don't think an anti-wrap spring would be necessary unless you plan on some huge tires and a lot of horse power. Then you'd be better off with a link anyways. This is of course taking into consideration that you will NOT be using a lift block of any sort. If you are the link again would be better but the anti-wrap leaf would fine too. Talk to the guys at All Pro and they'll steer you in the right direction.
Here's a shot of my truck after the wife took it for a spin with the ebrake on.

 

[downhill]

Thanks for all the replies. You guys are confirming what I thought but its good to hear it from other people. The price difference isn't huge so I'll be going with an aftermarket set.

I plan on sacrificing unloaded ride. The truck is used as a truck and it hasn't been completely unloaded since the day after the day I bought it.

One of the big things for me is some sort of anti-wrap capability. How effective is an anti-wrap leaf like the one creatures in the All Pro set?

It would be helpful to know what vehicle you have. Maybe I missed it. On my 07 4.0, the All-Pro springs made a night and day difference in the axle wrap, and I'm running 32" tires. I'm sure they would have been better than stock even without the anti-wrap, but the whole thing works well.