New Warn AIR COOLED Endurance 12.0 winch

[4WD Toyota Owner Magazine]

A lot of valid points have been brought up regarding electric winches in this thread. Something that has been alluded to but not covered as to why is the limited duty cycle of electrical winches and heat being the enemy.
Electrical winches tend to have a short duty cycle and severe overheating because (and I am referring to the typical install of a 12 volt system with 1 or 2 batteries) is the fact that the engine powered alternator cannot keep up with the load a winch puts on the system. When under load the winch can easily draw 200 amps out of the system and no alternator can replenish the battery fast enough to keep the voltage above 12 volts.Once the voltage drops, ohms law finds another way to keep up the power (watts or volt/amps). If the winch draws 200 amps at 12 volts it will draw 240 amps at 10 volts and so the battery is drawn down even faster while the wire and winch motor start to cook. For my money, a 24 volt or hydraulic winch is the only solution for more than casual use.
This doesn't mean a 12 volt winch is useless but it explains why they fail so often and why 24 volt or hydraulic systems rarely if ever fail due to overheating.

Cheers for probably the best answer yet; on topic and non-biased, and in regards to the heat aspect, which is what this new Warn winch is all about.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I think one of the problems with this discussion is similar to ones surrounding the Powerplant winches. That is: the assumption that Warn only makes winches for use by hardcore, educated wheelers.

The reality is they make winches that are used on commercial vehicles, as well as winches that will be used by the thoughtless masses. I saw a Warn M16000 installed on the front of a electrical company bucket truck. I assume they get stuck every once in a while. Now, given how clueless these guys seemed to be about things in general (it was terrifying knowing they were working on my household wiring) I can completely see them being stuck in the middle of a muddy field, hooking the winch up to a power pole, and just pulling, and pulling, and pulling. It's not their truck, not their winch, they don't care. These are the guys that would benefit from having a winch like this. Similar story on the Powerplant. I could see it on the front of a contractor's truck to bang a few nails in, etc. Or a rancher, etc... Somebody who needs a winch for probably non-life threatening situations, but also needs to drive a few nails.

Warn winches also get used by beer swilling wheelers who don't know about Ohm's law and are too drunk to think about heat. Although, I expect Champion winches are on those more often than Warn. I did see a 5000lb Warn trailer winch used to pull a 4 door Suzuki at least 100 feet through 3 foot deep very heavy snow.

Anyway, I agree this air cooled thing probably isn't for me. But I would be happy to see a cylindrical heat sink which could be mounted to the motor case, just to give it a helping hand.

 

[Antichrist]

But if that's so, why is it that the principal mode of failure in the field for Warn is excess heat? I would say that we would have to know how the winch was installed and how it was used, how is was maintained, and as much information as possible about the failure to know if it was mere heat (i.e., heat alone) that caused the failures. Ambient temperatures, solar exposure, mud and debris coverage on the motor, clean battery terminals and solid connections, all add to the problem, even with a good working winch.

Exactly. That's why I think the fan cooled winch is more a marketing gimmick than anything. Warn needs to differentiate themselves from the competition. They have the reputation of the 8274 to live up to. So they always are looking for new ways to wow customers. The problem is, I really believe that if they were genuinely concerned about motors overheating they'd provide much better instructions for wiring, and risks to the winch if it's not correct. Instead of the typical instructions,
"1. route the electrical cables so they don't chaff.
2. After connections are complete, make sure the winch works"

I would be happy to see a cylindrical heat sink which could be mounted to the motor case, just to give it a helping hand.

Once the fins got clogged with mud or dust, it would probably be worse than a bare motor.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...But I would be happy to see a cylindrical heat sink which could be mounted to the motor case, just to give it a helping hand.

Some of their models have just that, however some of their "premium" ones such as the 9.5ti do not.


Very interesting chat, great to see some of the thoughts on both sides of the fence. I'm around winches on a regular basis, predominately installing new units into bumpers or working on winch equipped rigs. I also work alot on a professional level with our local Warn Authorized repair center, which given our geography and their size (locations in 6 western states), I'd assume they are one of the larger repair facilities for Warn, with two full-time employees working on winches day in and out. On top of that I run Warn winches on two of my personal rigs, and have run Warn winches on 4 rigs before that including XD9000i, XD9000, M8000 and 9.5ti, with the XD9000 and 9.5ti being currently installed on my Tacoma and Land Cruiser respectively. I'll be the first to say my Tacoma winch is used for self recovery only, and given the use of the truck its rarely in a position to need an intense recovery, mabey stuck in some sand. However the Land Cruiser winch gets used for vehicle recovery's on a psuedo regular basis, during the summer months sometimes a couple times a month. Most case involve winching up extremely steep hills, though trees and immobile vehicles. I only bring all this up to reflect on my personal experiences list here:

1. I've never had a Warn motor fail. I have had a set of planetary gears grenade in an XD9000i and a brake shear on my 9.5ti, both under extremely heavy loads. In addition I have had solenoids fail on both my M8000 and my XD9000, easy fix though troublesome enough to warrant carrying a spare in my spares bag now.

2. I do run dual batteries on my vehicles and often switch them to "dual mode" when winching. With that my winch cable are relatively short runs, direct to the batteries, usually much shorter than the OE cables provided with the winch.

3. I've never had an issue "keying" the connector wrong. I was looking at it last night on my winch and I just can't figure out how that happens. You would really have to use what I would call excessive force to get it to go in clocked wrong. To those that have, I have to ask... how many keys have you busted in the front door of your house


All in all I applaud Warn for their continued innovation, though I'll side with the others in that some of their latest offerings have seemed a bit on the soft marketing side. I think somebody said it best in an old ExPo Warn Powerplant thread (sorry, can't remember who it was).

"An answer in search of a problem"

:lurk:

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Once the fins got clogged with mud or dust, it would probably be worse than a bare motor.

Yeah, I guess. To some extent I'd say that it's preventable if you maintain your equipment, don't let it cake on, keep it clean, etc. On the other hand, if you dunk it deep in the glop and that's why you're winching well...

Hey, how about liquid cooled winches?

As for the wiring, my EP9.0 came with 2 gauge, about 6 feet long. I cut it to about 3-4 feet and soldered on a new lug because that's all I needed. Is that enough, or should I upgrade it? Wouldn't be too hard for me to get some 2/0 welding wire. I work at a wire factory. I ran 10 AWG to my each of my driving lamps just because... it's free.

 

[asteffes]

Wow, a 12,000 pound winch on a Tacoma! That is huge. :yikes:

 

[DaveInDenver]

As for the wiring, my EP9.0 came with 2 gauge, about 6 feet long. I cut it to about 3-4 feet and soldered on a new lug because that's all I needed. Is that enough, or should I upgrade it? Wouldn't be too hard for me to get some 2/0 welding wire. I work at a wire factory. I ran 10 AWG to my each of my driving lamps just because... it's free.

It is never bad to increase the wire gauge (exception would be never change fusible link sizes). But IMHO, it's not urgent or critical insofar as it's dangerous. But there will be a noticeable difference in the voltage drop at full load, the 2/0 stuff will result in a definite improvement in winch efficiency. The 2/0 is about half the resistance of 2 ga., so at 300A 2/0 will drop about 0.23V per foot and 2 will be about 0.45V per foot. How important that is could depend on the motor specs, but over 6 feet that 2.7V vs 1.4V difference at the terminals is not insignificant if the battery is depressed to 11V. It's entirely possible that this could be the difference between still having usable torque and having a stalled winch. It's not hypothetical at all.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Damn, didn't realize it was that much. I guess I'll see if I can do 4/0.

 

[madizell]

It is never bad to increase the wire gauge (exception would be never change fusible link sizes). But IMHO, it's not urgent or critical insofar as it's dangerous. But there will be a noticeable difference in the voltage drop at full load, the 2/0 stuff will result in a definite improvement in winch efficiency. The 2/0 is about half the resistance of 2 ga., so at 300A 2/0 will drop about 0.23V per foot and 2 will be about 0.45V per foot. How important that is could depend on the motor specs, but over 6 feet that 2.7V vs 1.4V difference at the terminals is not insignificant if the battery is depressed to 11V. It's entirely possible that this could be the difference between still having usable torque and having a stalled winch. It's not hypothetical at all.

I favor the use of heavier cable when wiring winches, but I am also sometimes a bit lazy, so when I recently installed a new M8000 on my '68 CJ-5, I just used the cabling provided by Warn. The cables are #2 and are about 48 inches long. Given the information regarding line voltage losses, I would expect to see different voltage readings at the battery posts where the cables are attached and at the solenoid box where the cables lead to. My digital volt meter gives me a reading of 12.78 volts at both ends. No line loss out to two decimal places.

I note that you said "at full load" when describing the losses, but I don't know what the reference is to. Full load the cable can carry? Full load the winch can demand? Is the loss the same with low voltage DC and high voltage AC? What is the standard, and to what extent will this play out given that we are discussing 12V electrical winches which draw, say, 450 amps tops?

 

[DaveInDenver]

I favor the use of heavier cable when wiring winches, but I am also sometimes a bit lazy, so when I recently installed a new M8000 on my '68 CJ-5, I just used the cabling provided by Warn. The cables are #2 and are about 48 inches long. Given the information regarding line voltage losses, I would expect to see different voltage readings at the battery posts where the cables are attached and at the solenoid box where the cables lead to. My digital volt meter gives me a reading of 12.78 volts at both ends. No line loss out to two decimal places.

I note that you said "at full load" when describing the losses, but I don't know what the reference is to. Full load the cable can carry? Full load the winch can demand? Is the loss the same with low voltage DC and high voltage AC? What is the standard, and to what extent will this play out given that we are discussing 12V electrical winches which draw, say, 450 amps tops?

Good call, going back and checking I made an arithmetic mistake it seems.

Load is load and cables are never considered load, otherwise they would be heating elements. They carry the current that the load demands and are sized appropriately such that they do so safely and effectively. Thus, full load is 100% rated HP of the motor. So for a typical Warn winch, 4.6HP is around 3,400 watts and that is the full load on the battery. Depending on the voltage, that will be around 284 amps (at an arbitrary 12V).

BTW, voltage drop is dependent on current, it's just ohms law. You might measure 12.87V at both ends with only a meter because a volt-meter draws almost no current. According to the Table 8 in the NEC, uncoated copper, direct current resistance for 2AWG is 0.194 ohms per 1000 feet and 2/0AWG is 0.0967 ohms per 1000 feet. So the 2 AWG with 0.0002 ohms/ft at a current drawn by the meter (open circuit at the ends of the cable) of say even 100mA (which is probably orders higher than a DMM really draws) over 4 feet would be 0.08mV, probably below the resolution of a handheld DMM.

V = I * R = (0.1) * (0.0002 * 4) = 0.00008


If the load is 10A,

V = I * R = (10) * (0.0002 * 4) = 8mV

That would be measurable with a good meter, but probably not noticeable.


But (where my mistake seems to be) at 300A,

V = 300 * ( (0.194/1000) * 4) = 0.233V (2 AWG)

V = 300 * ( (0.0967/1000) * 4) = 0.116V (2/0 AWG)

Dunno what I was thinking yesterday, too many 12 hour days lately. Been making lots of mistakes. Sheesh. Still, relatively speaking, going from 2 -> 2/0 will cut the voltage drop in half. Just forgot to carry a decimal or something.

Gotta stop posting before leaving for a meeting that I'm late for...

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Ah, ok. That seems more reasonable, and I probably wouldn't bother changing it then. For lighting, the lumen output of the bulb is actually redecued by the square of the voltage drop... or something like that. It's a much larger figure. That's why I went 10ga for only 8 amps.

 

[DaveInDenver]

Ah, ok. That seems more reasonable, and I probably wouldn't bother changing it then. For lighting, the lumen output of the bulb is actually redecued by the square of the voltage drop... or something like that. It's a much larger figure. That's why I went 10ga for only 8 amps.

Yeah, no kidding. I posted that and ran off to a meeting and never rechecked it. Man, what a couple of months. Took off a few days back in June and since coming back from that vacation the gas pedal hasn't let up. I'm exhausted.

 

[Antichrist]

Tired of redoing the math for every cable run I do, some time back I just did a spreadsheet with the formulas. One for know amps (like winch motors), one for know watts (like lights). I just plug in the amps (or watts) and the distance, and technology does the rest. Then for things like lights I keep it under 0.5 volt and motors around 0.1 volt.

 

[madizell]

Chart saved for future reference. Thanks.

 

[Antichrist]

The chart is only good for the load/length illustrated since it's just a screen shot.
IM me your email address and I'll send you the spreadsheet in OpenOffice 2.2 or Excel 97 format.