Newb questions - apologies in advance!!
- Thread starter 60Dan
- Start date
crusader
Adventurer
Let me clarify what was meant by that Ford Explorer statement, since it seems to have caused quite a stir...
LR marketed these things as high-end, classy, posh cars with great four-wheel drive abilities. You'd think it was some sort of Rolls Royce with all-wheel drive, the way it was marketed here in the USA. LRNA obviously had a target market and corresponding price point in mind when they re-established the brand in the USA.
They were half right--They do have decent stock off-road abilities, I admit.
The comparison to the Ford Explorer is in the proliferation of the Disco as a commonplace, nothing-special, everyday run-of-the-mill vehicle in the UK used by everyday people, just as the Ford Explorer is here in the USA. This is not necessarily the image that the PR folks at Land Rover have crafted for us Americans. That is the intended extent of my comparison.
Perhaps later incarnations of the Discovery are better and live up to the "high end" image LR has firmly established for the brand and have improved the materials and workmanship to justify their high purchase price.--I don't know. It's possible. You have to admit that the disparity in current value vs. the original selling price of older Discoveries is quite telling.
The point of the reply to the original poster was that he should take a hard look at the Discovery to make sure he sees through the Land Rover marketing hype and knows exactly what he is getting when he turns in the keys to his turbo-diesel Land Cruiser.
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David Harris
Expedition Leader
Still, the point remains that the Discovery 1, the vehicle which established the model in this country, was built with the same design, materials and build standards as the Defender, and these high specifications set it apart from less expensive 4x4's. If a Jeep Wrangler actually had full-floating axles, gear-driven transfer case, deep gearing, etc., it would cost the same as a Disco to buy, and that's hardly a luxury vehicle. Look at the cost premium of a Rubicon as an example. They cost more to build better and I believe that this in a significant way explains their higher cost to by the the U.S. Also, the total numbers of LR's exported to and sold in the U.S. has always been low compared with other brands, also raising their prices. One has to take these things into account when making a statement that it is all price inflation to meet a luxury customer base. Just like BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, etc., you are actually getting something spec'ed to a higher standard than your run of the mill Taurus, Impala, etc.
David Harris
Expedition Leader
I agree with you wholeheartedly. However, making statements like the Land Rover is only the plasticky equivalent of the Ford Explorer, or the check engine light is equivalent to a "spend 2000.00 light." does not really help educate him, or anyone else on the true story of the Discovery.
Viggen
Just here...
I would drive one. I almost bought a 2H powered 62 with an H55 but didnt really like it that much. You couldnt get any more different a vehicle that a D1 and a 60 or 62. I hated the seating position of the 62. It was more car like than the Disco in which you can see anywhere from the drivers seat. The controls are better laid out in the Disco too making everything within reach. The Disco is taller whereas the 60/62 is longer. I like the wheelbase of the D1 also as its maneuverability is much better than the LC. For driving around in the woods where things are tighter, a Disco is a much better choice. Its a personal preference thing really. I didnt like the LC or, and here comes blasphemy, the Defender. If I were going for an Africa style expedition where I am in the truck for months on end, the added room behind the rear seat of the LC would be great and I would take one over a Defender all day long. The Defender was just too uncomfortable and having been personally T boned by another vehicle and been able to walk away (after crawling across the roof and out of the passenger window), the lack of anything between me and the oncoming bumper, kills it. The Disco gives me the comfort I like with a better seating position over an LC, the safety and the availability of parts just about anywhere. Who cares what it was originally marketed as when new.
You could, however, buy a built D1 for $4k- $5k in very good condition and then spend $8500 to $9500 to on a motor/ trans swap "kit" and install. Im going to be doing it to my D1 with a 300tdi setup and cant wait. A good diesel (returning good economy, and decent performance able to hold 65 mph), good capacity with the ability to carry a week or two worth of gear, comfort, along with cheap buy in and great aftermarket options make a D1 a great choice. Is it better than an LC? Thats up to you.
As for an 80 diesel, youll spend more building one of those than you will a diesel D1. Toyota 1HD's are about $6k for just the motor...
You could, however, buy a built D1 for $4k- $5k in very good condition and then spend $8500 to $9500 to on a motor/ trans swap "kit" and install. Im going to be doing it to my D1 with a 300tdi setup and cant wait. A good diesel (returning good economy, and decent performance able to hold 65 mph), good capacity with the ability to carry a week or two worth of gear, comfort, along with cheap buy in and great aftermarket options make a D1 a great choice. Is it better than an LC? Thats up to you.
As for an 80 diesel, youll spend more building one of those than you will a diesel D1. Toyota 1HD's are about $6k for just the motor...
crusader
Adventurer
Those are 3 true Discovery stories. My former DI interior was filled with brittle ABS-like plastic trim that has a tendency to creak when it chafed I motored down the road. Drove my wife crazy! The analogy to being the Ford Explorer of the UK has been explained, and a buddy of mine thought he got a bargain $2500 Disco I, till he spent almost 2 grand replacing 2 cats, 4 oxygen sensors and an ECU to get the check engine light extinguished in order to pass the annual state motor vehicle inspection.
I'm not here to poo-poo the Discovery, just to offer a cautionary view. Do your homework before you dive in. If the Discovery looks like the correct replacement for a Toyota LC, then go for it. It my all be moot anyway, since the OP was looking for a DII and my input is all relative to the DI. Again, I'd love to find an economical DI chassis (and axles) to stretch and put under my Series Rover daily driver.
Oh--Just for the heck of it, I ran the Kelley Blue Book values of a '96 Disco SD and a basic 4x4 '96 Ford Explorer in Champaign, IL, both with 150,000 miles, both in good condition. I admit that even I was surprised to see the Explorer came in at a higher resale value than the Discovery, especially considering their comparitive prices when new!
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David Harris
Expedition Leader
So you're saying that an equivalent model year LC, or anything else, for that matter, doesn't have cats and oxygen sensors which must be replaced as part of normal maintenance? That's just a fact of the modern emissions era.
On the resale values, that's no surprise, since we are living in the middle of great American farm country where LR's are little known and not in great demand. Anything Ford, Chevy or Dodge, on the other hand, is the vehicle of choice. That's great for people like me though, since I was able to buy my nice running Disco for 500.00.
At any rate, my advice to the OP was to keep the Land Cruiser and buy an inexpensive Discovery 1, so he can experience first hand what LR's are like.
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Yorker
Adventurer
There is no way I would do it if I were in your situation. Going from a FJ60 to a Discovery I doubt you'll be pleased in the long run. If you feel compelled to get something coil sprung and newer get an 80 series. I've seen too many people do exactly what you are contemplating only to end up displeased with the Land Rover. You need to start out with a certain mentality to cope with Land Rovers. I've rarely seen someone make the transition from a good Land Cruiser to a LR and be happy.
DarthBeaver
Adventurer
I love my rovers. but do not mistake that for a green light. it is an EXPENSIVE car to maintain. If I was starting out looking for a car to turn in to an Exped vehicle I would probably look to an older rover or jeep. More because of cost than anything. But because I just purchased the RR Sport I can now turn to My D2 and begin the process.
THis BTW is from a mechanically impaired individual who will be taking it to the shop to "get things done"...
THis BTW is from a mechanically impaired individual who will be taking it to the shop to "get things done"...
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
On the "expensive to maintain" part, I have a counterpoint.
I broke the female latch mechanism on my center console. I was able to order just the latch from the UK, for $8. My father's Buick had a similar problem. They don't sell just the latch. You have to buy the entire console for $300. In fact, I think that might have been the scrap yard price, because the scrap yards know that GM only sells the entire console for $800.
Just an interesting observation. Sometimes Land Rovers benefit from the fact there are legions of Englishmen maintaining them themselves, and special parts are available.
I broke the female latch mechanism on my center console. I was able to order just the latch from the UK, for $8. My father's Buick had a similar problem. They don't sell just the latch. You have to buy the entire console for $300. In fact, I think that might have been the scrap yard price, because the scrap yards know that GM only sells the entire console for $800.
Just an interesting observation. Sometimes Land Rovers benefit from the fact there are legions of Englishmen maintaining them themselves, and special parts are available.
60Dan
Explorer
Thanks for the info guys.
If the right Land Rover or defender came along that was already built, I would consider it but I think im leaning towards the 80 series.
Although my 3B is turboed and does decent on and off the highway, I think a diesel 80 series is going to suit my needs better.
Anyone want a nice diesel powered 60? I'll cut you guys a deal :sombrero:
If the right Land Rover or defender came along that was already built, I would consider it but I think im leaning towards the 80 series.
Although my 3B is turboed and does decent on and off the highway, I think a diesel 80 series is going to suit my needs better.
Anyone want a nice diesel powered 60? I'll cut you guys a deal :sombrero:
Lamborghini gallardos are used as police cars in italy. Police cars are run of the mill cars in most countries. Thus gallardos are run of the mill cars.
S2000 hondas are driven by girls who want a convertible, convertible cars driven by girls are run off the mill. Therefore s2000s(car and drivers top ten award several years in a row, widely acclaimed 2nd best track car made) are run of the mill.
Just because a vehicle is widely produced and ubiquitous doesn't make it run off the mill. Think m3 or m5. Far more produced than other cars yet are they run off the mill.
I agree with the other comments about thinking long and hard about buying land rover. However, if you buy a well maintained d2 with decent mileage you should be ok. We all hers the horror stories about a guy dumping 4k into his new discovery that he just bought. The issue is people are looking for deals and buy discos that are worth under 5k and expect there not to be any problems. Just doesn't make sense
-Sam
czenkov
Adventurer
If the sale falls through. Not mine. Defender w/Diesel.
http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26296
http://www.d-90.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26296
David Harris
Expedition Leader
Condolences on the sale of your D-90, my LR brother. Must be difficult . . . But, on to greater LR's!!!
R_Lefebvre
Expedition Leader
I can't comment on the D1 as I have little experience with them. But I find the D2 is finished to a much higher quality than comparable American trucks. In the late 90's-early-naughties, the Ford and GM trucks were just horrible inside. They may have had the same plastic content as a Land Rover, but the styling just wasn't the same at all. Ditto the seats. I can't sit in American truck seats for long without getting sore. The Disco has the best seats of any truck I've ever seen. They're about as good as the Recaros in my 83 GTI, which is saying a lot, actually.