Next-Generation Defender

[David Harris]

I think if the current model Defender could be brought in legally, it would be just a small niche market vehicle and would not sell in great numbers. I'm afraid people just aren't into roughing it much in a brand new vehicle. The number of people who take vehicles off road now is shrinking constantly. It would be attractive from a "cool" standpoint, like the Hummer, but let's face it, the real off-road Hummer, the H1, didn't attract nearly as many buyers as the Chevy truck with pseudo-Hummer body, leather interior, power windows and sound system ones (H2-3). It would no doubt be quite expensive as well. Americans have a different take on vehicles than the rest of the world, and even though America has as much, or more great off-road driving as anywhere else in the world, people are generally loath to get off even the interstate highways. The little four-wheelers (ATV's) are by far more popular than off-roading a full-size truck.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Agreed. We whine and complain about it, but the reality is, if they brought the Defender, it would sell a few thousand at best. The market for it is really not that big. A large amount of the existing demand for the Defender is only because of it's scarcity. If anybody could walk down to the dealer and buy a new Defender for $30k, all the purists would freak out, start talking about how come it's not a "real" Defender because it has a Transit engine. All the hardcore off-roaders would say that it's too expensive to beat up off-road. The poseurs would say it's not a hard-core off-roader because it doesn't have lockers. The soccer mom's would say it's too uncomfortable compared to a Nissan Murano. And all the rich men would walk in looking for a Range Rover, see this "commercial vehicle", not want to be associated with white trash, and promptly leave and go buy a BMW X5.

And on it goes.

 

[Red90]

You are comparing to the wrong vehicle.

They need to look at what Jeep has done when modernizing the TJ to the JK. It sells like hotcakes. They have (overall) managed to keep the off road ability while modernizing it to suit the average person. In addition, they offer a huge range of factory supported SERIOUS off road upgrades

Land Rover could do the same and much better, if they wanted to. There is a huge market that they could grab, increasing the Defender sales by an order of magnitude or more. This, however, requires vision and the desire to take back the market they used to own, but lost during the 70s....... It requires them to make the Defender better than the JK both on and off road AND at a competitive price point.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

The price point is the problem. They can't do it with the existing construction techniques. Also, the diesels are too expensive, as are the modern V8's. Look at the engine they're putting in the JK. LR would have to start building the old V8's again, because the modern Jag/LR V8 is way too expensive. LR would also have to declare bankruptcy, and have the government take on all their legacy costs. Maybe then, they could compete with the Wrangler on price.

And lets not kid ourselves. The Wrangler is a a horrible on-road vehicle, compared to what you could get for the same price if you didn't want the off-road ability. And 90% of Wranglers aren't taken off-road anyway. Most customers only put up with the on-road attributes in order to get the vehicle to portray the image they want.

 

[David Harris]

You are comparing to the wrong vehicle.

They need to look at what Jeep has done when modernizing the TJ to the JK. It sells like hotcakes. They have (overall) managed to keep the off road ability while modernizing it to suit the average person. In addition, they offer a huge range of factory supported SERIOUS off road upgrades

Land Rover could do the same and much better, if they wanted to. There is a huge market that they could grab, increasing the Defender sales by an order of magnitude or more. This, however, requires vision and the desire to take back the market they used to own, but lost during the 70s....... It requires them to make the Defender better than the JK both on and off road AND at a competitive price point.

I wouldn't say that the JK is built to nearly the standard the Defender is, that's why it is cheaper. The frame, transmission, chain-driven transfer case, even the axles (the Rubicon's are better, but still not full-floating), are not as stout as the Defender. The Defender was built to operate off-road 24/7 and still do it's job of transporting people and cargo in extreme conditions, the Jeep is a light-duty weekend warrior at best. Someone once drove a new Grand Cherokee across Asia and the suspension was falling off by the time they got halfway to the Pacific. The Wrangler is built no better than a Grand Cherokee, and Jeep doesn't need to build it any better anyway, since 99% of owners only care about the image of off-roadability, the other 1% of Jeepers pretty much tear the whole stock drivetrain and suspension out and replace it with parts more akin to the Defender's.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

The Wrangler is built no better than a Grand Cherokee, and Jeep doesn't need to build it any better anyway, since 99% of owners only care about the image of off-roadability, the other 1% of Jeepers pretty much tear the whole stock drivetrain and suspension out and replace it with parts more akin to the Defender's.

Exactly. I have a friend shopping for a used Rubi right now. It's unbelievable how many people bought Rubis and never took them offroad. Whatever for?! The used car lots are filled with them.

But then on the JK forums, all the guys who DO take them off-road, take all the Jeep suspension off, and put new stuff on anyway. It's weird.

 

[DaJudge]

I wouldn't say that the JK is built to nearly the standard the Defender is, that's why it is cheaper. The frame, transmission, chain-driven transfer case, even the axles (the Rubicon's are better, but still not full-floating), are not as stout as the Defender. The Defender was built to operate off-road 24/7 and still do it's job of transporting people and cargo in extreme conditions, the Jeep is a light-duty weekend warrior at best. Someone once drove a new Grand Cherokee across Asia and the suspension was falling off by the time they got halfway to the Pacific. The Wrangler is built no better than a Grand Cherokee, and Jeep doesn't need to build it any better anyway, since 99% of owners only care about the image of off-roadability, the other 1% of Jeepers pretty much tear the whole stock drivetrain and suspension out and replace it with parts more akin to the Defender's.

I am not trying to start anything here but comparing a Grand (Especially a new one) to a JK is like comparing a car to a truck. The grand has a completely different suspension and is designed to ride nice. The JK is a little better than the TJ but still has straight axles and is designed for offroad. I don't know anyone who feels the need to "tear the whole stock drivetrain" out. I do know guys who are running 35's with no issues. The only reason anyone has changed any suspension parts is to lift the vehicle. (this does exclude the hardcore rock crawling crowd - but their needs rule out ANY stock axles or suspension) You might consider gathering some facts before you comment on that which you do not know!

Back to the point of this thread! If Ford can screw up the Defender they will! They haven't cared about the offroad market for years. Hopefully someone will recognize the greatness of the brand and stop them from rebadging some Ford people carrier.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Speaking of talking about what you know, Ford sold Land Rover a while ago.

 

[David Harris]

I am not trying to start anything here but comparing a Grand (Especially a new one) to a JK is like comparing a car to a truck. The grand has a completely different suspension and is designed to ride nice. The JK is a little better than the TJ but still has straight axles and is designed for offroad. I don't know anyone who feels the need to "tear the whole stock drivetrain" out. I do know guys who are running 35's with no issues. The only reason anyone has changed any suspension parts is to lift the vehicle. (this does exclude the hardcore rock crawling crowd - but their needs rule out ANY stock axles or suspension) You might consider gathering some facts before you comment on that which you do not know!

Back to the point of this thread! If Ford can screw up the Defender they will! They haven't cared about the offroad market for years. Hopefully someone will recognize the greatness of the brand and stop them from rebadging some Ford people carrier.

Well, I haven't been a LR owner/enthusiast all my life. For twenty years before that, I was a diehard Jeeper. I have built many serious off-road Jeeps and have seen first hand what I am talking about. Look at any Jeep parts/accessory dealer catalog and you will see countless kits to swap axles, drivetrain, whole suspensions, engines, you name it. And these are available for the newest models within months of them coming out. A whole industry thrives on upgraded drivetrain components for Jeeps. If there weren't such a big market, there wouldn't be such a big supply. In fact, the newer models require these upgrades even more, because they are even more car-like than the old ones. The only thing the Wrangler still has going for it really is that it still has straight axles. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the next generation has independent front suspension. On the other hand, how many kits/components do you see out there for swapping out the LR axles for entirely different units? Shafts, lockers and gears, yes. How many replacement upgraded transfer cases do you see offered for Rovers? Low range kits? Long arm suspensions? It already has the good ones stock. And I haven't even mentioned all the custom frames or frame strengthening that goes on with Jeep builds. Jeeps wish they had the heavy duty frame that LR's have stock. Those are the facts. With all that said, I still have a place in my heart for the American Jeep. It is unique and irreplaceable in 4x4 history. After all, it was the inspiration for the LR. However, it has unfortunately been a long time since Jeep built an off-road vehicle which was built primarily for off-road use and not for the road. You'd have to go back to the CJ. The Wrangler was the beginning of compromise. Jeeps are built to a price point much lower than LR and it shows. You get what you pay for. You get more with the Rubicon, but it costs more.

 

[David Harris]

Exactly. I have a friend shopping for a used Rubi right now. It's unbelievable how many people bought Rubis and never took them offroad. Whatever for?! The used car lots are filled with them.

But then on the JK forums, all the guys who DO take them off-road, take all the Jeep suspension off, and put new stuff on anyway. It's weird.

It's hard to believe someone would pony up the extra cash for a Rubicon and never take it off-road. But then again, a lot of them probably didn't even know what they had. . .

 

[AxeAngel]

Same for yota owners. My girl never engaged 4wd or hi/lo till we went camping. A buddy with a trd taco pre runner thought the rear locker button was to be used when towing

-Sam

 

[RocKrawler]

Fugly and reminds me of an Amigo.

I agreewith the first part, but thats an insult to Amigo's

I wouldn't say that the JK is built to nearly the standard the Defender is, that's why it is cheaper.

But at least the wiring works on the Jeep, usually.

It's hard to believe someone would pony up the extra cash for a Rubicon and never take it off-road. But then again, a lot of them probably didn't even know what they had. . .

Same as the Toyota FZJ80/Lexus LX450 owners who never used the e-lockers they paid good money for, happens all the time.

Personal opinion is they made a great vehicle mediocre and much uglier at the same time. I'm sure West Coast Customs will drop one with 22's and a boom'in system and they will be all the rage in the major metro areas, with IFS/IRS its an upscale Suby with none of the reliability or resale value. What is happening to all the automakers these days?

 

[Jacket]

I'm thinking it looks more like an old Fiat.

What is happening to all the automakers these days?

Maybe the better question is what is happening to the government to force US spec vehicles to look like that? Sure, the designs are weak, but they are also working against serious constraints from the NHTSA.

 

[David Harris]

I'm thinking it looks more like an old Fiat.

Maybe the better question is what is happening to the government to force US spec vehicles to look like that? Sure, the designs are weak, but they are also working against serious constraints from the NHTSA.

Yes. Back in 2000 I had a conversation with one of the chief engineers for Land Rover. He was in Las Vegas for a G4 event. We were discussing LR's, of course, and I mentioned that the really great thing would be for them to bring the Defender over to the US. He stated that they would never do so again, because for it to meet US government regulations would mean making it a completely different vehicle than it was, and that this just wasn't cost effective for Rover.

 

[Red90]

The price point is the problem. They can't do it with the existing construction techniques. Also, the diesels are too expensive, as are the modern V8's.

This is the attitude that makes it impossible. They need to step out of the high priced box that they put themselves into. It could be done if they really had the vision to do it.

I'm a designer. I know what needs to be done. It could be done if they choose to....