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Village Idiot
I remember your header build on your bike from weldingweb.com.

Thanks for the response. I was wondering, do you think your front bumper, all 3/16 (am I wrong?) steel, properly welded, like yours, will hold to the stress of a 12k winch?

If it does, this may be my new winter project.
 

sakurama

Adventurer
I remember your header build on your bike from weldingweb.com.

Thanks for the response. I was wondering, do you think your front bumper, all 3/16 (am I wrong?) steel, properly welded, like yours, will hold to the stress of a 12k winch?

If it does, this may be my new winter project.

Thanks! I've learned a lot since then for sure. And I'm a better welder for sure.

I think that the bumpers ability to hold that force is entirely up to your build. The center section of the bumper is 1/4" and, not being an engineer, I tend to think in terms of how much weld is holding things. If I am getting full penetration and then building up the welds on the mounts I think it will. If you go back a few posts you can see how the mounting ears on the frame are really the weakest point being barely welded to the frame. I added a fair amount bracing to those ears.

If a 1/2" pin can hold a 12,000lb trailer (in shear) then I'm looking to have at least that much cross section in my attachment points. Again, not an engineer but someone who's looking at comparables. I won't really know until it comes down to it but to answer your question I believe that it will if you add the additional bracing.

Gregor
 
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sakurama

Adventurer
Any updates Gregor?

Updates? A ton. Progress, meh.

And it's for those exact reasons I've been reticent to post an update. Nonetheless let's dive in.

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The big issue I've had since day one is an acute death wobble. For a year I've been replacing parts to the point that every part of my front end has been replaced at least once and none of it has solved the issue. At the same time my good friend and neighbor Taylor mentioned he was also having a similar issue with his MG converted V10 van and after going for a drive on the same roads it was obvious that our issues were identical but mine were simply more pronounced. Bumps or braking from 55-45mph would set the front end into a mono-beam axle shimmy - the technical term for death wobble.

When MG gave up I reached out to Chris who was addressing the issue with an update to the coil setup and was very confident that his update would solve the DW. I know Chris really tests and uses his vans so I was very hopeful. Both Taylor and I ordered kits for $1500 and I found a local shop that had done some conversions and I brought them my van to do the swap.

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This is my van with the U-Joint coil update:
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It was a fairly simple swap but beyond what I can do in terms of space and size. Art, the mechanic, got the kit installed and called me to say that it didn't fix the issue. I was absolutely crushed and headed out to test the van myself to see what it was like. The ride was about the same, the turning radius was a bit reduced and the wobble was absolutely... the same.

I emailed Chris but he didn't respond. Not out of callousness but I guess he missed my email. At this point Taylor and I commiserated that if the two major builders of these vans can't fix our issue what the ******** do we do? I did the only thing I could think of and that was - to call my refrigerator repair man.

Actually I was calling him about our oven and he heard the frustration in my voice and asked what else was going on. Appliance repairman are much like therapists. We've known each other for a few years and I know he's built some cars and bikes and so I told him the whole story. He was pretty familiar with the situation and immediately told me that he knew who I should call - Leonard of Leonards Offroad - who was a personal friend.

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Leonard was one of the foremost 4x4 builders in the country before he retired (that's Leonards personal tube framed crawler on the right) running a small shop that billed out several million a year working on and building pretty outrageous 4x4's and was named one of the best shops in the country by several magazines. He said I should come by his house so he could take a look. For a comparison Taylor brought his van with MG's kit and mine with the U-Joint conversion.

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After measuring the hub angles, checking caster, radius arm angle and feeling and testing for any play in the many joints of the steering Leonard offered that he liked the original MG conversion. The U-joint conversion might make more sense on an off road rig but he wasn't a fan of the drag link not being centered on the axle line. He suggested going back to the MG kit.
 

sakurama

Adventurer
And here's part two...

Since it had been several days and I'd not heard from Chris on either email or phone I sort of assumed that I'd been dropped like a hot potato by builder number two. That wasn't the case - Chris did reach out to me several weeks later but at that point I had turned the van around and went back to the shop and had them pull the entire kit off and put it back to MG's set up.

Let's call that a failed $2700 experiment. If you add that to the parts and labor spent chasing this for the past year I'm at about $9000 trying to fix my van. Or about the cost of the Volvo wagon I should be buying my wife.

I spent a lot of time thinking about this issue, laying on my back under the van and on the phone talking with Leonard. My theory is that the radius arms are not being held in alignment to each other. If you look at my video you can see the axle moves in an arc around to the middle of the axle. Not side to side which is what the track bar prevents. The parts that hold the axle to the van - the only parts that hold the axle to the van - are the radius arms. This is a very different set up than leaf springs which hold the axle in four points - two in front and two behind the axle which offers a lot of rigidity. Radius arms, in contrast, are held in only two places to the frame, behind the axle and have bushings in them and bushings flex. If there's a "moment" or an instance that upsets the axles linear alignment to the body those forces feed through to the radius arms and into the frame.

Leonard agreed that the theory made sense and suggested that I order aftermarket bushings of a higher durometer to help eliminate flex and perhaps prevent that "moment" from occurring. He also suggested that I install a double steering damper to control and prevent the propagation of any shimmy until a solution is found. To be fair that was MG's suggestion that I didn't want to accept but I'm tired of fighting this and replacing parts. So...

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So I purchased a Fox double damper set up as it's the most beefy option on the market. We installed it and then I headed to Ron's Front End for another alignment.

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The head mechanic there was extremely sympathetic as he'd just spent 6 months trying to resolve the exact same problem on a brand new F250. He liked the conversion of my van as it was set up and he checked everything and it was all in spec and he liked the way it drove. He, like Leonard, didn't charge me at all for their time.

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So is it fixed? Depends how you look at it. Is it better? Yes.

Downhill hitting the brakes between 45-55 you can feel the slightest of vibrations but the van no longer exhibits a full death wobble. I can now tow with peace of mind and I'm not scared to go down mountain passes or take my family on trips. Do I feel like this solved the problem? No.

What I've learned over this past year or so is that the design Ford uses and that MG's kit mimics can be prone to this behavior. It is much more likely to affect V10's and diesels like mine and Taylors' van and that's because they're heavier. The frames of the vans are not the same as the frames of the pickups and the added weight invites issues. Even new pickups can have these problems. The other thing is that for the front end to perform as designed every single part of the steering, suspension, front end, alignment, tire balance and pressures need to be brand new and in spec. If you put a used axle in your van you're asking for trouble. If you repair one part at a time each worn part invites the specter of wobble and once you have this issue it is devastating to the rest of the parts in the chain. Trust me on this.

My theory and the thing that I want to change is the radius arm bushings. We put new bushings in but it made no difference because the stock bushings are of a lower durometer. I have a friend who manufactures custom bushings and I'm talking to him about making custom ones for the van as there is no aftermarket for the newer axles - only stock replacements. Not even Moog makes them because the axles are too new to warrant the cost of tooling startups according to Moog's head of development who I spoke to at length. My friend looked at the stock bushings and suspects that they are in the 65-70 durometer range and he thinks that an improvement could be had by going up to something nearer to 80. That's one option I'm considering.

The other aspect that I feel could be an issue is that the radius arms do not tie into each other. I know from my many years of motorcycle racing and building that the relationship of the headstock to the swingarm pivots is essential. Any movement, any flex invites unintended steering. There is next to nothing tying the frame rails to each other and, by extension, keeping the radius arms in alignment. I would like to make a cross brace that would tie both radius arms together in alignment. This is essentially what I did to my BMW road racer frame and it worked very well.

I don't know why this issue hasn't been solved in the larger sense and I'm certainly an unlikely person to solve it. What I do know is that I'm curious, a pretty good problem solver and too stupid to stop now. I don't think that three steering dampers on my front end is what I'd call a "solution" but lots of people seem to think it looks really cool...

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So, not sure if that was the update you were looking for but it's the update you get. I don't really accept that this is an issue without a solution so I'll continue to beat my head against a wall... er, explore ideas and report back what I find.

And so this doesn't get derailed I have some other things I'm working on that I'll update tomorrow.

Gregor

PS - in other news you'll see that I have Oregon plates now instead of VT. I also have an OR title as well. Thanks VT - you rock.
 

b dkw1

Observer
Things I have learned about Fords. Bumpers are a structural part of the frame. Most trucks are almost undriveable without the front bumper on. Also tieing the radius arm mounts together is pretty standard. Steering box also makes a huge difference.

If it were mine, I would ditch the steering stabilizers and go with a ported box and ram from PSC. Good hiems on the drag link and panhard bar.

The ram being mounted to the axle will take a lot of stress/flex out of the frame. It will also prevent any oscillation from happening as there is directly mounted to the cross bar.
 

sakurama

Adventurer
Things I learned from hifi and motorcycle racing: garbage in garbage out. Just as giant speakers only make poor sound louder you need to work as far upstream as you can.

I've replaced the steering box, I've replaced all the joints with Moog and gone heavier where there's an option - there are zero issues with my axle - it's been checked by several experts. It's an interesting idea to change the steering but I think that's a red herring. If we consider that our vans are built and designed as two wheel drive vehicles and we're adding four wheel drive components we need to look at the where the components meet the host vehicle and the host vehicle itself. Van frames aren't the same as truck frames - why and how.

The biggest change so far was when MG redesigned and significantly braced the track bar mount. That's an interface between the axle and the van frame. I want to look at the main interface - the radius arm mounts. The small, spindly forks and frames of old motorcycles created weaves and wobbles by introducing unintended steering input through flex. I have a lot of experience testing and building motorcycles and the basic idea was always to persevere the geometry relationship of the frame through bracing. That's something that I'm going to explore and test.

You can theorize as much as you want, you can even run stress models on a computer and none of that replaces the actual testing of an idea in the real world. Most of the ideas for dealing with this are happening around the axle so I want to move away from that and look at the bigger picture. In the end there is no one solution just as there is no one part that fixes it since these vehicles are complicated assemblies. I've learned a lot in the past year about all of this and hopefully through testing ideas I'll continue to learn more. And I'll share what I learn.

Gregor
 

Bikersmurf

Expedition Leader
.02

From the beginning I was thinking that your rigs former life wasn’t relevant... but now I’m starting to reconsider. What makes your rig different than Taylor’s? Not that their isn’t an issue with both.

I’ve got an old Fj40... years back I replaced a frame in it that was rusting through in the back with a newer one in excellent condition... the next time I went wheeling, obstacles had suddenly become more of a challenge. Why... because the newer frame was tighter and it’s rivits along the length didn’t allow for as much flex... and thus less articulation.

Now how this relates... I believe your frame has more flex (or perhaps different a different harmonic resonance) which allows the problem to be worse.

That said, I’m not a throw it away kind of guy... so, what next?
1) I’d look over the existing front 1/2 of the frame for any signs of stress &/or cracks... not likely, but if you find one later on, you’ll be pissed.

2) I think your front bumper has the front of the frame tightened up. The area near the radius arms is next. I’d grab a Come-A-Long and carefully pull the frame together across where the mounts are. Seems crazy... but is there flex? Now how what is needed to reduce/eliminate/change that flex? Some flex can be good... but not where it’s not wanted.

For that matter, if you pull things together and go for a spin, does it make a difference? Better or worse it could tell you if you’re getting warmer... or ice cold.


3) I’d think on the rock ram... although it seems like overkill and I’ve never felt the need for one, reducing the forces being transferred through the tie rod from the knuckles to the steering box (with the passive damper) made your driveable... an active ram could help even more... or just put that Volvo even further away. Reducing forces transfered through to the frame could also reduce the need to stiffen it up.

I feel your pain... and really hope you get this figured out before it bankrupts you.
 

UHAULER

Explorer
Put on some old KTM forks for steering dampers:D j/k
Keep up the good work. From my distant view, I think the track bar mount is one of the weak links. No matter how beefy the bracket is, it will still twist the frame rail. Is it possible to build an extra crossmember under the engine?
 

Bikersmurf

Expedition Leader
Put on some old KTM forks for steering dampers:D j/k
Keep up the good work. From my distant view, I think the track bar mount is one of the weak links. No matter how beefy the bracket is, it will still twist the frame rail. Is it possible to build an extra crossmember under the engine?

Or is there any way to stiffen up the rail itself? Scab plates, boxing it in, extra channel iron, cross bracing to something solid?
 

sakurama

Adventurer
And now a post that will hopefully distract from the likely endless speculation of my last post!

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I'm finally getting around to making a rear tire carrier. The only option out there is the Aluminess one and while that may work I wanted from the beginning to make something different. I use the rear doors a lot and don't want to have to open the tire carrier every time I open the back - I've seen how much of a hassle that is. In order to preserve as much of a view of the tail light as possible I'm going to try to raise the tire up - maybe even higher than that.

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I want the carrier to look and feel like part of the bumper - integrated. I'm using the spindle from the 4x4Labs site as I like how heavy it is. I took the 2x2 square tube that came with it and recut it so that the base would follow the lines of the bumper. No reason other than looks.

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I used a small stitch to pull the tube into alignment but for now I'm not going to fully weld anything until it's all figured out.

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The gas strut on the kit uses small ball studs and I like keeping one of these thread tools around to check what tap I'm going need.

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The key to the placement of the gas strut is that it should cross the center line of the pivot slightly in order to snap closed but once opened a few inches the strut then assists in opening. Think about the action of a kickstand. The struts are 150lbs and impossible for me to move by hand so it was a bit of a gamble picking the locations for the pivots. I also had to weld additional stops on the spindle so the strut wasn't the stop.

Next up is trimming the end of the main support and then building the mast to the tire position. My friend Ben and I are going to be heading to NV in a few weeks with two big bikes so I want to get that spare out of the back to get the room I need.

Updates soon on that.

Gregor
 

sakurama

Adventurer
Put on some old KTM forks for steering dampers:D j/k
Keep up the good work. From my distant view, I think the track bar mount is one of the weak links. No matter how beefy the bracket is, it will still twist the frame rail. Is it possible to build an extra crossmember under the engine?

Yes, the new track bar mount that MG designed ties into the cross brace and adds strength to it. As far as I know only Taylor and I are running them and it's helped but not solved the issue. I want to move away from the axle to the frame. There's no cross brace at the radius arm mount so that seems like low hanging fruit.

I'll keep working on it.

Gregor
 

CaulkinsCo.

Member
Can you post a photo of the radius arm mount? I probably over built mine but was a little shocked at how weak the factory f350 mounts are.
 

another_mike

Adventurer
Happy to see you found a solution. Ive been watching this thread. I also have the MG coil conversion on my V10 van. I dont have any issues, but if I do, what youve done will definitely help me diagnose.
 

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