OJ winch tests.

toyrunner95

Explorer
I agree John that your tests were very well done and that your conclusions were valid. Maybe I just had a stick in my craw about seeing a perfectly good 12k winch crack under stress. Espically from WARN. THE most trusted name in recovery winches. I really cant believe that it broke.
 

bpj911

Observer
Winches

We use winches every day with very long pulls. We only use electric winches when we can't get a hydraulic on site. Ie, ground mounted with helix anchors.

There is no brand really more reliable than the others and I buy approx 25 electrics a year. I usually buy the Superwinch as we have a good person we buy them from and the service is better. (expedition imports_ I have 5 warn electrics right now on the front of trucks. All have been broken except for one. I have a bone pile of Superwinches as well. We have had one Milemarker hydraulic. The brake failed the first time out. One Ramsey, broke the case within a month.

We have been using the H11P non pneumatic long drum Superwinch hydraulic and are in love. We also have on H20P and the guys love it.

We never depend on one electric. Too costly. We travel with at least two and one of them is always brand new.

I used to think winches were such a cool thing to have on the front of your truck. I hate the damn things now as I have to deal with them constantly. It's part of the job. I hate all brands equally though. :)

Check out our website. Anemometry.com
 

Jonathan Hanson

Supporting Sponsor
Toyrunner95, we were surprised too. However, logic told us even before the incident that a 12,000-pound winch that weighs less than 65 pounds has to be giving up something somewhere.

As we pointed out in the review, it's difficult to draw firm conclusions from one incident. You'd have to run the same test on 100 winches before you had anything like valid statistical data. Nevertheless, the results did raise legitimate questions about the reserve structural integrity of the model.

Fortunately Warn was totally cooperative, which says a lot about the company. The replacement will get a good long fair shake to prove its mettle.
 

Robthebrit

Explorer
I've never seen a hydraulic winch that wasn't powered by a PTO unit, though I suppose you could have one driven by an electric hydraulic pump, but I don't think it would be very effective. Even a PS pump driven milemarker starts life as a PTO, since a the PS pump is a PTO unit.
They are different though, in that a PTO driven winch has a mechanical linkage between the power source and the winch, while a hydraulic winch uses, well.....hydraulics.

A direct drive hydraulic winch is absolutely no different to an electric winch, they simply use a different motor with slightly different gearing. Pto winches are very different but the combination of a PTO hydraulic winch sounds strange to me, why bother with hydraulics if you have a pto? I guess it makes sense because domestic trucks don't have hydraulics. For a unimog straight up hydraulic winches are really common, they run from the trucks hydraulic system (the same system that snow plows, front loader and fork lift attachments use). You can't use something like a warn/mile marker hydraulic winch because they are made for power steering system and the pressure in a real hydraulic system will blow the seals (you can't use the mogs power steering because it typically runs on the same system high pressure system as the hydraulics). People have done it but they typically use some sort of regulator to control the pressure and flow rates.

Warn make a mog winch with euro style hydraulic quick connects but nobody uses it because they just stuck a hydraulic motor in place of the electric one and its really expensive. In addition its marketed for the U500, what use is a 15000 pound winch on a U500 with a 33,000 pound gross weight, get a U500 stuck and you got yourself a problem! (http://www.warn.com/industrial/winches/series15_unimog.shtml).

Why is it not fair to compare this 15000 pound Warn to a direct drive hydraulic Werner? Even a 7000 pound hydraulic Wermer is more than twice the size of the Warn mog winch. That tells me something.

Rob
 
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Antichrist

Expedition Leader
A direct drive hydraulic winch is absolutely no different to an electric winch, they simply use a different motor with slightly different gearing.
Depends on the winch. For instance, Ramsey makes/made a hydraulic winch like the RE series electric, but the hydraulic, for some reason, had a smaller diameter input shaft. But you're correct that in principle they are the same. Just that with a well designed hydraulic winch system you come closer to a 100% duty cycle.

Pto winches are very different but the combination of a PTO hydraulic winch sounds strange to me, why bother with hydraulics if you have a pto?
I think you missed my point. If the hydraulic pump is running off of the powertrain somewhere, it is technically a power take off unit, taking power from the powertrain. It's just that it's a PTO unit converting the mechanical power from the powertrain to hydraulic power, then its converted back to mechanical power at the winch by the hydraulic motor. A mechanical PTO it mechanical from drivetrain to winch.

I'll grant that it's a nit to pick. ;)
 

bpj911

Observer
Ramsey

I can't remember the model. It had the integral solenoid on top. QT, QR, QM? It was an electric though.

The only hydraulics I have had have been Superwinchs. Warn and Ramsey don't seem to have a big enough drum to accomodate the 300 feet of cable we use. So, I just buy the big Superwinches and we use them. The only issue we have had is the entire winch was dropped off a truck onto the pavement and broke the hydraulic hoses off at the block...The skid steers that run them on the other hand give me fits all the time...
 

CanuckMariner/Nomad

Love having fun 😊 in the 🌞 by the ⛵ and the ⏳
WoW quite the discussion. Seems there are as many opinions as there are brands.

I haven't read this article because my OJ hasn't arrived yet (the usual situation when you live in an remote expanse like Kanukistan) as the snow is too deep for the dog sled to deliver it. So my comments are only to the general reason as to why one would have a winch that does what it is supposed to.

I look at it as a winch (any brand) is just like an insurance policy (unless you are in competition or you love mud bogging and getting stuck, you need a separate rider for that! - like a spare or be close to to others who have one that does work when you need it) and is used primarily as a "just-in-case" situation. An insurance policy, rarely gets used but when you need it, well enough said.

I travel extensively on my own (solo as few have time like I do - thanks Targa88) to some very remote areas/regions and rely on my winch to get me out of a stupid situation, I have gotten myself into. So far that has happened only twice and let's hope it stays that way. The winch paid for itself right then and there!

I use my winch as a last resort, ALWAYS! It is there when nothing else will do. I prefer to use tow straps first as they are easier to work with, quicker and 9/10 they do the trick. Always leaves my winch for just-in-case. Further, when I do have to use my winch (in solo situations there is no other choice), I always use at least one snatch block if not more. Gives me more room for error (over pull/maxing out, etc.), easier on the motor (actually on everything) and the winch doesn't have to work so hard, less stress on all parts, etc. and the winch is still in good order for the next time. Plus, why buy a snatch block if you don't use it every time? I currently have two, one old and one new (thanks JJ) both ARBs and they both work great.

I have a Warn M8000 24V with Amsteel blue 125' line. Synthetic besides beibng safer,l lighter, floating, etc., it is easier to manage when it is only you, stuck in a sand dune near Laguna Diablo, Baja, it is over +40C outside and you're about 25 kms from San Felipe. Glad a Pachycormus discolor or Bursera microphylla (not sure which but I call them Elephant Trees) was just in reach of my then stock wire cable. It was during this trip that I decided to get synthetic, as the cable was way too cumbersome (sand, heat, sweat) to maneuver. I rewarded myself with a couple of muy fria Negro Modelo in San Felipe afterward!

My rig weighs around 6000 lbs when I am expedition ready for a couple of months. I have pulled (my 73 series and a dead 4runner) way over (12000 lbs at 10% grade in snow) the M8000 recommended rating with no adverse effect and yes it got a bit warm - great for warming your hands - took over 2 hours to get up the hill.

These tests are great for giving the non-professional, week-end warrior, expedition type, yes us newbies as well, an indication of what these contraptions will do when required to put them to the test. Money well spent given in three years I have used mine and only twice to pull myself out of a bad situation.

Considering what some folks spend on auto insurance, AAA (nope they won't help you where you need a winch) and the like, a winch is the most inexpensive and fun insurance I have ever gotten, beats life insurance hands down. Imagine paying for something and never getting any benefit? I digress...

These gear tests in OJ, as well as the gear reviews/recommendations throughout the 4 issues and the annual gear review, put these authors, these self-proclaimed gear testers, in the scrutiny of the readers (yup that's us) and don't think for a moment, that they are not setting themselves up to our comments/criticisms. From what I have read since the journals inception, they have done an outstanding job (no "brown-nosing" intended) of reviewing and testing expedition equipment that we have all asked for and all want to see and know about (hopefully before we buy it) to make a much more informed decision on whether to include these items in our arsenal of "get-me-out-of-a-jam or creature comforts. Some of you have pointed out that no test is perfect, you're quite right! These tests are merely an indication of how much the product lives up to its marketing claims, that's all! Every product has its lemons, ones that do not live up to the claim (human error, test procedure error, manufacturing error, blame it on what you like). But now you know what they can do in similar situations that we all put them through, and that's the point!

Well done lads! I look forward to more of the same quality!
 

I Leak Oil

Expedition Leader
WoW quite the discussion. Seems there are as many opinions as there are brands.

I haven't read this article because my OJ hasn't arrived yet (the usual situation when you live in an remote expanse like Kanukistan) as the snow is too deep for the dog sled to deliver it.

No, you haven't received it yet because I have it. For some reason I just got a second copy in the mail! :victory:
In this second copy the Warn broke again too.
Hmmmm...I wonder if it's worth anything on Ebay?
Jason T.
 

CanuckMariner/Nomad

Love having fun 😊 in the 🌞 by the ⛵ and the ⏳
No, you haven't received it yet because I have it. For some reason I just got a second copy in the mail! :victory:
In this second copy the Warn broke again too.
Hmmmm...I wonder if it's worth anything on Ebay?
Jason T.

I like your humour, Jason...sounds Kanukistani! When the dog sled arrives, feed the muts and let the driver warm up a bit and then send them this way, eh?
 
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Antichrist

Expedition Leader
It's been 6 years. I'm disappointed there hasn't been a hydraulic winch test, though i realize it would be more complicated.
 

Scott Brady

Founder
It's been 6 years. I'm disappointed there hasn't been a hydraulic winch test, though i realize it would be more complicated.

Hydraulic represents less then 2% of recreational recovery winches sold. We just cannot dedicate the pages to such a niche.

However, if you want to run a test on hydrolic winches for expo, we are in!
 

onetraveller

Adventurer
Scott,
Any plans for a update to this test? It's been 6 years and there are several new players in the field.

Something along the lines of Warn 8274 & Zeon, Superwinch Talon, Comeup, Ramsey, Milemarker, Gigglepin and maybe some of the other house brands like the Viking GS-9. Target 8-10k lbs, Synthetic rope only,

Mike
 

proper4wd

Expedition Leader
I was a lifer Warn guy (or so I thought) until I caved and bought a Superwinch Talon 12.5.

What a magnificently smooth, powerful, fast, and easy to use tool.

It is twice the winch that my Warn 9.5ti was when new - which says a lot. I'm a Superwinch convert (well the 8274 is still the ultimate I guess, from a design perspective).

http://www.superwinchexperts.com/products/superwinch-winch-talon-12-5-12v-1612200

(and, half the price of any comparable Warn product)
 

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