Recommended 12v charger?

zuren

Adventurer
I'm sorting out a battery/electrical issue with my van. The van has been sitting more than I like and sat most of the winter in pretty severe temps. It wouldn't start on Sunday so I threw a charger on it (10 amp) for a few hours to get it started. Ran it, drove it around, came home and parked it. 48 hours later it wouldn't start again. It's a 2 year old NAPA Legend (75 month). I could have a short somewhere but I'm starting with the easy things.

My plan tonight is to pull the battery and charge it at 10 amps until I go to bed, then throw my Batter Tender charger on it (senses charge, auto-shutoff). Tomorrow morning, I'll take it to a NAPA to do a load test to make sure the cells are still good.

My fear is either a cell has gone bad or the battery has become sulfonated from sitting too much. If sulfonation is my issue, is there a recommended charger to have on hand? A Schumacher 1200A seems to get good reviews and is way better than my old, fixed 2/10 amp Sears charger.

http://www.amazon.com/Schumacher-SC...p/B000BQSIWK/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top?ie=UTF8

Thanks!
 
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mobiledynamics

New member
I'm well aware smart chargers have profiles for flooded, AGM and even LIPO. Marketing aside, I don't see how they can desulphate a AGM battery..
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
My Ctek successfully desulfated a pair of Optima Yellows that were retired when they would no longer crank the engine. My Optimate rescued another Optima Yellow, and that one is now back in the truck. Odyssey says they work, and even has a list of recommended charger/conditioners on their website. Bruce Essig, founder of Odyssey, told me that he charges/conditions/desulphtes one of his personal vehicles every couple of months because that vehicle does not get driven much.
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
I'm well aware smart chargers have profiles for flooded, AGM and even LIPO. Marketing aside, I don't see how they can desulphate a AGM battery..
The process works the same in all lead-acid batteries.
Lead sulfate created by the discharge process begins to harden or crystallize on the battery's plates if the battery is not periodically returned to a full 100% charge (and is why many batteries get thrown out/recycled because crystallized lead-sulfate is a good insulator). A desulfator breaks up this hardened sulfate using sharp pulses of current for a few microseconds each pulse that slowly dissolves the sulfate back into it's lead & acid constituents.

I too have recovered many batteries, both AGM and FLA using a desulfator. Usually it's only when a battery has a bad cell that it can't be recovered (shorted/open cell, been reversed at some point, or has shed material from the plates).
 

VanIsle_Greg

I think I need a bigger truck!
I would say Ctek or NOCO. I have a NOCO and have used a Ctek before.

Same here. I have a NOCO Genius G3500 that has been excellent. I have used it on a number of batteries and it has worked very well, even brought one back from the dead for me. I leave it on my Jeep XJ in the winter and when it is sitting as a maintainer, help protect my investments.

I have also used the Battery Tender maintainers and know a bunch of people with the Ctek stuff, all very useful and worth the $$.

That Shumacher looks interesting. I like the test features and the 12 amp abilities.
 

zuren

Adventurer
Update:

I took the battery into NAPA to have it tested and it came back as a bad battery. Since it was still under a prorated warranty I just replaced it with a new unit. I'm curious to know if it was an issue with being sulfated or it was a dead/open cell. I should probably pick up a more advanced charger and a load tester so I can answer my own questions.

I never had issues with batteries until the past 5+ years. It seems I'm having to replace one every couple years due to some major failure.

Thanks for the suggestions on a charger! Any suggestions for a load tester? Seems like a digital unit might yield better information on the condition of a battery.

Since the van sits for extended periods, I should probably put a solar battery tender on it to keep the battery healthy.
 
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Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Any suggestions for a load tester? Seems like a digital unit might yield better information on the condition of a battery.
It seems that the digital units are the way to go, but that is somewhat deceiving. They are quick and painless and have bells and whistles, but are not all that reliable (meaning they will return results that indicate a bad battery is actually OK). The best tester is a carbon pile tester, but they are kind of bulky and can be somewhat pricey. Next best is the old school impedance tester with a copper coil and an analog gauge on its face. My load tester is a Schumacher impedance tester (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=1ZJ5ZEDGKCM6P73GJVF8), backed up by a multimeter. This combo has proven to be more accurate than the digital testers used by at least one local purveyor of batteries. After I got a bad battery from them I called to see if they had tested it it before they sold it to me. Sure enough, it had passed on their digital tester but when I took it back it failed on their carbon pile tester. I've been planning to buy a carbon pile tester but just haven't gotten around to it.
 

VanIsle_Greg

I think I need a bigger truck!
Update:

I took the battery into NAPA to have it tested and it came back as a bad battery. Since it was still under a prorated warranty I just replaced it with a new unit. I'm curious to know if it was an issue with being sulfated or it was a dead/open cell. I should probably pick up a more advanced charger and a load tester so I can answer my own questions.

I never had issues with batteries until the past 5+ years. It seems I'm having to replace one every couple years due to some major failure.

Thanks for the suggestions on a charger! Any suggestions for a load tester? Seems like a digital unit might yield better information on the condition of a battery.

Since the van sits for extended periods, I should probably put a solar battery tender on it to keep the battery healthy.

I think batteries like most things are suffering from the "I want it fast and cheap..." trend in the retail space today. Cheap, easy, fast and readily available seems to be the trend, whereas I prefer to buy better quality and only buy it once. Heck, I'll even wait for it.

I spoke to my local battery shop (he sells everything there) and he tells me that he see's a lot of so called "premium" batteries coming back in as DOA or failing very quickly. More so that ever before. Why, they moved manufacturing to save bucks and the quality has degraded.

Not surprised you got one that didn't last. It sucks but it is happening more and more.

Having a battery maintainer with a desulfation feature is a great idea, protect that investment!
 

4x4junkie

Explorer
I have to wonder if the recycled lead a lot of batteries are using now due to environmental concerns has something to do with their faster failure rate (leftover contaminants in the lead increasing the rate at which the sulfate crystallizes? or maybe hinders it reverting back to it's lead & acid constituents as thoroughly or as quickly? or ?).

Whatever it the case, today's batteries definitely don't seem to be the "stick it in there and forget it" devices they once were. They need some amount of nurturing now if they are to continue working for more than a couple years. I've noticed some seem to have faster self-discharge rates too.
 

Ducky's Dad

Explorer
Most battery manufacturers are using recycled lead, and there is really no reason not to. Once it's been properly recycled, it is "100% pure lead," as some companies advertise. A few years ago, Deka developed some reputational problems because of their admitted use of recycled lead. Whatever issues they may have with their batteries, the lead is probably not the cause. A few months ago when I was shopping for batteries, I half-heartedly tried to order a Deka 31M from my usual vendor, and he talked me out of it. His view (and he moves a lot of batteries) is that the Deka is fine when new, but that I would be replacing it sooner than I would one of its better competitors.

I have done a fair amount of research and kicking things around with manufacturers and mechanics, because of the battery issues I have had over the last few years. The consensus seems to be that it is not a self-discharge problem as much as it is a parasitic drain problem. All the electronic crap on newer vehicles has increased the parasitic drain to the point that even a daily driver sees a significant drain that is not always replenished during a short commute. Do that over a long enough time and you get a degree of sulfation, and most drivers can't even spell sulfation. The sulfation can be cumulative in some situations and can lead to premature battery failure. The obvious culprits would be clocks and alarms and USB cell phone chargers that are left plugged in all the time. Nobody in the general public seems to realize that things like proximity starters (in some cars) are always looking for a ping from a local "key," and the car's computer is almost always awake to some extent. Even on vehicles in which the computer is ostensibly designed to completely shut down, there is often a much longer delay than in the past. When you lock the car and walk away, it might take the computer ten minutes to power down. I have been told that some alarm systems will keep the body module awake, even when the alarm is not activated, because the body module is programmed to look for a ping from the alarm sensors. I recently learned that some power programmers (like the Edge Evolution in my Dodge) add a tiny bit of parasitic drain when they are left plugged in to the OBD-II port, and I generally leave mine plugged in because it is also an eight-parameter programmable gauge pod. It shuts off about thirty seconds after I remove the key, but even with the display off, there is a drain. The National Luna battery monitors that I just got seem to add a bit of parasitic drain, even when turned off. All this little electronic crap adds up.

I also read up on some the the emergency vehicle upfitter websites (fire, police, ambulance, etc.), and they seem to have similar concerns, but even greater than ours because of the huge amount of electronic gear in those vehicles. When in service, a typical police car spends the whole day and often the night with all the electronics on, but the engine at or near idle, so less than full replenishment from the alternator. One AGM battery manufacturer told me that transit buses in Los Angeles get put on conditioning chargers periodically to offset their constant low-speed use in L.A. traffic. A mechanic told me that one reason Chrysler is now offering dual alternators on Hemis is that so many police departments are now buying Hemi sedans that they realized the single alternator could not reliably keep up with the load from the electronics in crowded urban service at low speeds. The single biggest issue they face is sloppy installation and programming, even by professionals. Electronic gremlins are even more insidious than electrical gremlins, and often cannot be tracked by mere mortals.
 
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228B

Observer
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4x4junkie
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I have to wonder if the recycled lead a lot of batteries are using now due to environmental concerns has something to do with their faster failure rate...
Ducky's Dad
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Most battery manufacturers are using recycled lead, and there is really no reason not to. Once it's been properly recycled, it is "100% pure lead," as some companies advertise.
.
Interesting stuff... was anyone aware of Odyssey/DieHard Platinum AGM's claim that their plates were made from "99.99% pure virgin lead"?
Too, these particular AGM's require a long time (3 to 6 hours) in an absorption phase and at a voltage higher (14.7!) than what other makers recommend.
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A few months ago when I was shopping for batteries, I half-heartedly tried to order a Deka 31M from my usual vendor, and he talked me out of it. His view (and he moves a lot of batteries) is that the Deka is fine when new, but that I would be replacing it sooner than I would one of its better competitors.
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Along with your excellent theory which includes an ever-increasing "idle" draw current and phantom loads, I think too that these premium AGM battery types are not being charged completely... these need a 3-step charge profile from a microprocessor-controlled charger. Alternators alone will only take it to 80-85% state of charge and with what we know now about AGMs, this can also kill battery longevity.
 

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