REI, Politics and Public Lands
- Thread starter Woods
- Start date
"There's too many of us, there's too many of us there's too many of us."
-Lee Ving, FEAR
I am not sure who said it but earlier in this thread someone mentioned the increased numbers taking to the trails. Whether by foot, bike, motorcycle, 4WD or whatever there are more and more out in the world of remote places. (When I came to the mainland in '87 there were so few people traveling in the marquis BLM spots I visited that I was shocked.) I am from Hawaii- I think it's an important example of land management vs. development/ population growth/ access issues; nothing hones consequences like an island- we in Hawaii were where the mainland is now in the seventies with regards to land use, there always seemed enough land or resources then to develop or somehow bend things to man's will. I wish I could say that all the decisions made since I was a kid on Oahu were good ones- they weren't but I believe now that folks finally have a handle on learning to better live within Hawaii's environmental means. We aren't always doing it but the trend is positive, people are beginning to grasp what it means to live on an island.
I also believe difficult decisions have to be made everywhere in the US (and abroad) to preserve what little undeveloped environment we have left regardless of a place's popularity with any interest group, be it rock collectors or the mining industry, mountain bikers or hardcore wheelers: once wild places are lost they are lost along with the ecosystems they comprised. And if ever there were a time to understand that we are all of us in this together, every person, animal and plant part of a greater whole, it is now. We have become accustomed to conditions as we have always known them even as we fail to see that the larger picture obligates that we change our expectations in response to our changing environment. Like many of you I have been camping out of my truck since before it was called "overlanding" (which I think is sort of silly but that's a different topic) and I have become accustomed to being able to travel freely in places in the western US that I have been traveling to since I moved to the mainland close to 25 years ago. I also backpack, surf and spearfish and in all of these pursuits I see environmental degradations- just as I see them in my camping trips. And in most every case I see the cause of these degradations is overuse of those environments whether by individual, group or corporation. Twenty-five years isn't a long time and the changes in some of the places I love have been dramatic. Those of you that remember, compare the Death Valley or Mono Lake of a quarter century ago to today- I would argue that sheer numbers of visitors have impacted these and many other places for the worse. Certainly managing this traffic is critical to these and many other places' survival, never mind managing raw materials interests like mining companies in the desert SW or logging concerns in the NW.
I am sure that there are folks that want to crawl down my throat with arguments about preservation mismanagement, call me a lefty-commie whatever and who wouldn't share a cup of coffee with me for those last two paragraphs but the reality is that there are too many of us and we are living beyond our environmental means. Call me what you will (and I am sure you will!) but at this point in human history sacrificing access here and there for a greater good seems the least we can do for our own sake and the sake of those who will come after us. We may not return things to a halcyon state of imagined perfection, humans have been degrading the environment since we began our ascent as the most influential creature on the planet (here in the contiguous US from the Native Americans to Lewis & Clark to the great post WWII Westward migration) but we can make decisions to temper our influence and for me at least if that means parking my truck and shouldering my pack to get where I'd like to go, so be it. And to those that argue for the handicapped and aged I say tough ****- we all have to make concessions to our capabilities, I would love to still be skating pools but I know that my body is no longer capable of it. I don't like that but I live with it and do the things that I can, life is full of concessions and trade-offs and there are many amazing places mobility impaired folks can go. And I'd REALLY like to still be able to skate pools!
One of the great successes that I know in making unpopular changes for the greater good came with fishing prohibitions (not restrictions- prohibitions) at the Diamond Head end of Waikiki. When I was young these reefs were largely dead and none of my friends nor I thought of diving them, practically no one did, they had been fished out. Nonetheless the prohibition was unpopular- largely because fishing had almost never been prohibited before in Hawaii. Today thanks to these prohibitions the reefs are teeming with fish like I have never known. There are very specifically coordinated windows during the year where very specific fish are allowed to be taken. Something that was dead has been restored and the consequences have been great for nearby reefs as well, reefs that can be fished with less restriction. Certainly there are now rules where once there weren't and people have had to learn to live with this but I think that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that turning the clock back to the time of the old dead reefs is a good idea. We have to learn to live within our means....
All of us reading this thread can certainly agree that the earth is an incredible place that has evolved amazing environments. From rain forests to deserts and everything in between when we take the time to look even the most mundane bug is pretty incredible. Isn't that why we all go camping? fishing? hunting? And isn't protecting that worth suffering the indignities of being restricted from always being able to drive everywhere? And when it comes to REI, who cares? They are really at a basic level only stoking consumerist ideas that may not be forever supportable either. Fix stuff, buy it used, buy seconds and last year's stuff at Campmor when you really need something new- go check it out at REI to see if it fits or whatever. Military surplus is awesome, it's pretty easy to camp like a king on the cheap thanks to government waste! I'm still using a twenty year old backpacking tent, it's been restitched and is heavier than what might be out there today but it still works so I'm not going to ditch it. Take the low impact ethos off the trail and to hell with REI, there are enough folks between this forum, MUD and the million backpacking forums that I bet everyone could get the things they need from those that no longer need them and for less dough just exchanging things on the classifieds. I'm no ascetic either- I camp pretty high on the hog without REI except for a lantern mantel here or there because they are six blocks from my house. Hell, my local hardware store blows their white gas price out of the water!
Thanks for reading, let the hating begin! I can't wait to hear the names....
J
You can hate me on MUD too- I don't often post here, I'll be easier to find there! Same name, same truck.
-Lee Ving, FEAR
I am not sure who said it but earlier in this thread someone mentioned the increased numbers taking to the trails. Whether by foot, bike, motorcycle, 4WD or whatever there are more and more out in the world of remote places. (When I came to the mainland in '87 there were so few people traveling in the marquis BLM spots I visited that I was shocked.) I am from Hawaii- I think it's an important example of land management vs. development/ population growth/ access issues; nothing hones consequences like an island- we in Hawaii were where the mainland is now in the seventies with regards to land use, there always seemed enough land or resources then to develop or somehow bend things to man's will. I wish I could say that all the decisions made since I was a kid on Oahu were good ones- they weren't but I believe now that folks finally have a handle on learning to better live within Hawaii's environmental means. We aren't always doing it but the trend is positive, people are beginning to grasp what it means to live on an island.
I also believe difficult decisions have to be made everywhere in the US (and abroad) to preserve what little undeveloped environment we have left regardless of a place's popularity with any interest group, be it rock collectors or the mining industry, mountain bikers or hardcore wheelers: once wild places are lost they are lost along with the ecosystems they comprised. And if ever there were a time to understand that we are all of us in this together, every person, animal and plant part of a greater whole, it is now. We have become accustomed to conditions as we have always known them even as we fail to see that the larger picture obligates that we change our expectations in response to our changing environment. Like many of you I have been camping out of my truck since before it was called "overlanding" (which I think is sort of silly but that's a different topic) and I have become accustomed to being able to travel freely in places in the western US that I have been traveling to since I moved to the mainland close to 25 years ago. I also backpack, surf and spearfish and in all of these pursuits I see environmental degradations- just as I see them in my camping trips. And in most every case I see the cause of these degradations is overuse of those environments whether by individual, group or corporation. Twenty-five years isn't a long time and the changes in some of the places I love have been dramatic. Those of you that remember, compare the Death Valley or Mono Lake of a quarter century ago to today- I would argue that sheer numbers of visitors have impacted these and many other places for the worse. Certainly managing this traffic is critical to these and many other places' survival, never mind managing raw materials interests like mining companies in the desert SW or logging concerns in the NW.
I am sure that there are folks that want to crawl down my throat with arguments about preservation mismanagement, call me a lefty-commie whatever and who wouldn't share a cup of coffee with me for those last two paragraphs but the reality is that there are too many of us and we are living beyond our environmental means. Call me what you will (and I am sure you will!) but at this point in human history sacrificing access here and there for a greater good seems the least we can do for our own sake and the sake of those who will come after us. We may not return things to a halcyon state of imagined perfection, humans have been degrading the environment since we began our ascent as the most influential creature on the planet (here in the contiguous US from the Native Americans to Lewis & Clark to the great post WWII Westward migration) but we can make decisions to temper our influence and for me at least if that means parking my truck and shouldering my pack to get where I'd like to go, so be it. And to those that argue for the handicapped and aged I say tough ****- we all have to make concessions to our capabilities, I would love to still be skating pools but I know that my body is no longer capable of it. I don't like that but I live with it and do the things that I can, life is full of concessions and trade-offs and there are many amazing places mobility impaired folks can go. And I'd REALLY like to still be able to skate pools!
One of the great successes that I know in making unpopular changes for the greater good came with fishing prohibitions (not restrictions- prohibitions) at the Diamond Head end of Waikiki. When I was young these reefs were largely dead and none of my friends nor I thought of diving them, practically no one did, they had been fished out. Nonetheless the prohibition was unpopular- largely because fishing had almost never been prohibited before in Hawaii. Today thanks to these prohibitions the reefs are teeming with fish like I have never known. There are very specifically coordinated windows during the year where very specific fish are allowed to be taken. Something that was dead has been restored and the consequences have been great for nearby reefs as well, reefs that can be fished with less restriction. Certainly there are now rules where once there weren't and people have had to learn to live with this but I think that you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks that turning the clock back to the time of the old dead reefs is a good idea. We have to learn to live within our means....
All of us reading this thread can certainly agree that the earth is an incredible place that has evolved amazing environments. From rain forests to deserts and everything in between when we take the time to look even the most mundane bug is pretty incredible. Isn't that why we all go camping? fishing? hunting? And isn't protecting that worth suffering the indignities of being restricted from always being able to drive everywhere? And when it comes to REI, who cares? They are really at a basic level only stoking consumerist ideas that may not be forever supportable either. Fix stuff, buy it used, buy seconds and last year's stuff at Campmor when you really need something new- go check it out at REI to see if it fits or whatever. Military surplus is awesome, it's pretty easy to camp like a king on the cheap thanks to government waste! I'm still using a twenty year old backpacking tent, it's been restitched and is heavier than what might be out there today but it still works so I'm not going to ditch it. Take the low impact ethos off the trail and to hell with REI, there are enough folks between this forum, MUD and the million backpacking forums that I bet everyone could get the things they need from those that no longer need them and for less dough just exchanging things on the classifieds. I'm no ascetic either- I camp pretty high on the hog without REI except for a lantern mantel here or there because they are six blocks from my house. Hell, my local hardware store blows their white gas price out of the water!
Thanks for reading, let the hating begin! I can't wait to hear the names....
J
You can hate me on MUD too- I don't often post here, I'll be easier to find there! Same name, same truck.
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cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
For the record, REI absolutely was a corporate sponsor of REI up until ~2007. They were clearly on record as donating hundreds of thousands of dollars to SUWA through their direct contributions as well as their Conservation Alliance affiliation (of which they were a founder and early member and SUWA was a major benefactor of). I can't speculate as to why they are no longer listed as financial contributor or if there are any ties in the current days but I'm optimistic there is not. I have no qualm with the fact REI doesn't cater to motorized users through their product offerings, they understand their scope and market and I can't fault them there. I can and did fault them when they were proactively trying to exclude motorized user from Utah's public lands, this by directly supporting SUWA financially. As their public stance has obviously softened in regards to SUWA, so has my distaste of them. I'm very up to speed on Utah's land issues and have met on many occasions with even SUWA themselves on these issues in hopes of developing a working relationship that can work on trail issues one by one. Turns out there are occasions when the motorized pro-access community is on the same side as SUWA on issues such as paving the Burr Trail or widening and grading the Hole-In-The-Rock Road, neither side sees it as remotely beneficial to our parties. That said their GCNM and RRWA litigaton and proposals will result in major loss of access for the motorized community, both 'hard core' OHV and moto routes as well as those well regarded and prized within the overland community. I don't expect any immediate results and frankly we might not see any results but at least we are talking about ideas and opportunities.
As for REI's current endeavors, you can see some of the more recent grants they were associated here:
http://www.conservationalliance.com/grants
None are screaming anti-motorized to me but I'm far from up to speed on the different groups listed. I do know that none represent threads to OHV routes here in Utah. Beyond that, the only affiliation I've noted in the recent years with SUWA proper is hosting their slide shows but I think REI would likely let a motorized group hose a presentation at one of their stores as well so I'm not leaning either way there.
As for REI's current endeavors, you can see some of the more recent grants they were associated here:
http://www.conservationalliance.com/grants
None are screaming anti-motorized to me but I'm far from up to speed on the different groups listed. I do know that none represent threads to OHV routes here in Utah. Beyond that, the only affiliation I've noted in the recent years with SUWA proper is hosting their slide shows but I think REI would likely let a motorized group hose a presentation at one of their stores as well so I'm not leaning either way there.
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
Thank you, Rando. I was going to say the exact same thing, but you beat me to it. Word for word.
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
While I'll agree that we often have far more in common with the un-motorized crowd than most are willing to admit or at least sit down to discuss... there is little in the way of give and take here in Utah, at least in a balanced perspective. We have lost thousands of miles (100% literal) of motorized routes here in Utah in the last 5 years with 6 BLM RMP revisions. SUWA was heavily involved in these RMP's and in fact is in current litigation that they didn't close enough routes. Well, to be fair they say it didn't protect enough of the land to encompass their GCNM and RRWA bills. However the fact is simple, we have lost thousands of miles of what were legal and remote routes and gained well under 100 miles on BLM lands in the last 5 years. And that 100 is being generous as I can readily thing of just a few newer routes and they are primarily short Jeep routes in the Moab area (Fallen Officer Trail is one) and single track routes that happen to be open to motorbikes as well. All this while Utah is experiencing an epic growth of OHV's and OHV users throughout the state. Dispersed recreation is being corralled and thus impact and user conflicts are obviously going to increase as well. I consider that corralling misuse and pollution. There is little give-take in that equation no?
Sorry but labeling the general overlanders' plight with Sierra Club as "give and take" sounds quite naive and lacking in experience.
Couple questions can easily put this in perspective:
Is there a serious, well-funded lobby to EXPAND motor vehicle trails? Most certainly NOT.
Is there a serious, well-funded lobby to REDUCE motor vehicle trials? Most certainly.
Couple questions can easily put this in perspective:
Is there a serious, well-funded lobby to EXPAND motor vehicle trails? Most certainly NOT.
Is there a serious, well-funded lobby to REDUCE motor vehicle trials? Most certainly.
Christophe Noel
Expedition Leader
I fully understand your point of view, Kurt. Well said.
In the broader scope of REI and how their philanthropic endeavors are judged, I do think there is a myopic assessment that leads people to believe REI has targeted, and is hunting the overlander to extinction. That's two scoops of hooey. REI supports a wide variety of open access causes, but as you can imagine, the more people you support the greater the chance for supporting conflicting groups and causes. REI is not anti-OHV. The outdoor industry at large is not anti-OHV. Outdoor Retailer's own industry publication features a new offroad vehicle review every issue. Many fine backcountry playgrounds are at the end of off roads.
As I see it, the ball has bounced into the court of the OHV traveler. When climbers were threatened with closures, they formed The Access Fund. It enjoys massive success. Mountain bikers formed the International Mountain Bike Association. I am of course aware of the Blue Ribbon Coalition and the other groups that strive to keep OHV access open. These groups are not just fueled by dollars, they're propelled by voices. As members of various user groups, we have to make our voices heard. Boycotting REI in an effort to assuage the closing of OHV trails is tantamount to punching a straw man. Might make you feel good for a while, but won't further your cause.
In the broader scope of REI and how their philanthropic endeavors are judged, I do think there is a myopic assessment that leads people to believe REI has targeted, and is hunting the overlander to extinction. That's two scoops of hooey. REI supports a wide variety of open access causes, but as you can imagine, the more people you support the greater the chance for supporting conflicting groups and causes. REI is not anti-OHV. The outdoor industry at large is not anti-OHV. Outdoor Retailer's own industry publication features a new offroad vehicle review every issue. Many fine backcountry playgrounds are at the end of off roads.
As I see it, the ball has bounced into the court of the OHV traveler. When climbers were threatened with closures, they formed The Access Fund. It enjoys massive success. Mountain bikers formed the International Mountain Bike Association. I am of course aware of the Blue Ribbon Coalition and the other groups that strive to keep OHV access open. These groups are not just fueled by dollars, they're propelled by voices. As members of various user groups, we have to make our voices heard. Boycotting REI in an effort to assuage the closing of OHV trails is tantamount to punching a straw man. Might make you feel good for a while, but won't further your cause.
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I think the base assumption here is that the current situation in Utah is balanced, and that is the basis for any discussion. As both a motorized and non-motorized user, I would ask, what is the ratio of motorized routes to non-motorized routes as it stands currently? What percentage of public lands are available to motorized travel, and what percentage are not (ie Wilderness Areas, Wilderness Study Areas)? Given that data, what is the correct balance? 50/50, 75/25, 90/10?
Utah KJ
Free State of Florida
The Fed claims ownership of more than 60% of the land mass west of Denver. A Fed judge just shot down UT attempt to gain control of some of this land improperly taken by the Fed under eminent domain. Ironically, despite the Fed ignoring the equal footing clause and the Constitutional constraints on the Fed owning land, this judge said the UT law upset federal priority.
So yeah.... besides that, it's a pretty balanced approach.
cruiseroutfit
Well-known member
Therein lies the debate. While I would have to do some research on the numbers I can tell you that 100% of the areas open to OHV use are also open to and in some cases heavily used by non-motorized contingents. This would be the greater Moab area for example in which 90% of the areas routes were build for and by motorized means (including the famous SlickRock Bike trail which was pioneered by motorcycles). On the flip side, there are millions of acres and thousands of miles of trails in FS, BLM Wilderness, National Park, WSA and misc. lands open to only non-motorized users. Barring private and military lands, Utah's lands are 100% open to non-motorized travel. I don't take issue to NOT opening more motorized routes, but I do take issue with closing existing routes particularly historic routes that have in some cases been open for 50 years or more. There is an open and legal route in the Maze area (Big Ridge for those familiar) that was left open on the most recent BLM RMP several years ago. It offers the only motorized access to a particular area. It needs some trail repairs after rock falls... the BLM was threatened with litigation and a petition by SUWA to not allow the repairs thus closing yet another historic route. Both sides of the story:
SUWA:
https://secure2.convio.net/suwa/site/Advocacy?cmd=display&page=UserAction&id=786
(Note they call it impassible for 30 years, moto users have been using it continuously including the recent months and SUWA knows this
)Sagebrush Coalition:
http://sagebrushcoalition.com/2013/06/24/urgent-help-save-the-big-ridge-trail/
We lost hundreds of miles of routes in the Hanksville area when the RMP was revised and yet they need more for their balance? Absolutely zero new routes have been created or re-opened in the recent years. How is that any sort of balance?
There's a lot of good commentary and I appreciate the time and thought that folks have put into this.
The debate about different groups and their perspectives is great. I'd like to simply this a bit though. There is a severe lack of balance of this point. Trails are being closed to motor vehicles in a very large scale. Is REI supporting closures or not?
One question that is becoming more difficult to answer, is where does REI put it's political donations. Add up the numbers that have been presented in this thread and we are missing a large part. Does REI publish 100% of it's political affiliations? This is a COOP. I would expect a higher level of transparency from a COOP than I would a publicly held company. I wish I could find information about who they support and how. Money, hosting of events, distribution of publications etc. Come on REI, make this information available. Does anybody have it?
I'll not shop at REI until they either support BRC or I see a complete list of affiliations and am given the opportunity to see where they stand based on that. I find it difficult to believe that they do not have any affiliation with the Sierra Club. Right now they walk like a duck...
I'm going to write to BRC and see if I can learn anything about their relationship with REI. If I get anything, I'll post it here.
The debate about different groups and their perspectives is great. I'd like to simply this a bit though. There is a severe lack of balance of this point. Trails are being closed to motor vehicles in a very large scale. Is REI supporting closures or not?
One question that is becoming more difficult to answer, is where does REI put it's political donations. Add up the numbers that have been presented in this thread and we are missing a large part. Does REI publish 100% of it's political affiliations? This is a COOP. I would expect a higher level of transparency from a COOP than I would a publicly held company. I wish I could find information about who they support and how. Money, hosting of events, distribution of publications etc. Come on REI, make this information available. Does anybody have it?
I'll not shop at REI until they either support BRC or I see a complete list of affiliations and am given the opportunity to see where they stand based on that. I find it difficult to believe that they do not have any affiliation with the Sierra Club. Right now they walk like a duck...
I'm going to write to BRC and see if I can learn anything about their relationship with REI. If I get anything, I'll post it here.
I wrote to BRC, but I don't expect to hear that there is any working relationship, after reading this: http://www.sharetrails.org/node/8603