Rover Gear and a Beer Ashcroft D2 CVs & 1/2 shafts

[R_Lefebvre]

I wonder if it had something to do with the scrub radius on the truck, and that would be largely influenced by tire diameter and wheel offset. Might account for why some people are ok with the TT, and some aren't?

I just say that because.... torsen diff's don't have a reputation for evil handling on fwd cars. So it's not inherent in the design of the diff itself. There's more going on.

 

[LandyAndy]

^^ agreed. especially if you have any lift and haven't castor corrected.

I failed to mention that it was also the advise of a number of drivers that see lots of snow.... and the truck is castor corrected btw for the lift it has. I run winter studded tires at present & swap back on the summers in spring. I didn't want to go with ARB's as they have a habit of pushing on in snow.... so I was advised. The TT's front & rear were a compromise for the conditions we get here. Will stick them in & see how it goes. I can always swap them out for ARB's at a later date. The D90 could do with something in the front instead of the 4 pin it's got, back end is already ARB'd.

 

[muskyman]

I had a quaiffe in a front wheel drive car and it was dangerous in the snow so I guess I am not following your logic?

 

[muskyman]

I failed to mention that it was also the advise of a number of drivers that see lots of snow.... and the truck is castor corrected btw for the lift it has.

thats cool...I know of a buncha rover guys that had them in front and pulled them out because of this issue...i hope it works for you.

 

[muskyman]

ARB's as they have a habit of pushing on in snow....

not really sure what you are talking about here?

I have never had mine lock for no reason, and if you mean push as in understeer in a corner? when they are unlocked they are just a open diff and do not change the way a truck drives.

 

[LandyAndy]

The idea was to have a system that just worked without having to constantly lock/unlock the diff's.... will put them in & see how it goes. I can always swap one out if I don't like it... not a big deal.

At the end of the day I don't do 100's of km's a week.... more like about 200km.

Will see what happens..... thanks for all the good advice

Irrespective of the operation..... Justin did us a good deal & service was excellent.... it was more cost effective for me to buy from him than get the parts shipped from the UK where I still have 'trade' accounts with suppliers. So, all in all, I'm happy..... they arrived well packaged & ready to install.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I had a quaiffe in a front wheel drive car and it was dangerous in the snow so I guess I am not following your logic?

What kind of car? That's why I said there's more going on. Scrub radius, unequal length half-shafts, etc... Basically a Quaife only *accentuates* already bady handling traits. It does not create them. If you have an unequal torque about the kingpin, the Quaife will make the torque steer that much worse.

Mine's in a Focus, a good handling FWD car. Integra Type R came with one, nobody complains about those. The Focus RS was somewhat evil handling, but they screwed up the geometry when they pushed the wheels out.

 

[Red90]

OK, here is my question. Have any of the people saying TTs are bad in snow actually driven in snow???.... I'm on snow 6 months a year, for the last 25 years.

Good god... They are great in snow. They are by far the best traction aiding device you can get for driving on the road in snow.

You are probably the same people that will tell me I will die because my 90 has a Detroit in the rear. Strangely enough nothing strange ever happens.....

 

[traveltoad]

OK, here is my question. Have any of the people saying TTs are bad in snow actually driven in snow???.... I'm on snow 6 months a year, for the last 25 years.

Good god... They are great in snow. They are by far the best traction aiding device you can get for driving on the road in snow.

You are probably the same people that will tell me I will die because my 90 has a Detroit in the rear. Strangely enough nothing strange ever happens.....

Yes and it is a pain to drive. For snow Musky is correct...ARB is a better way to go. (And before anyone gives me grief about living in SoCal and not knowing how to drive in snow... I grew up in the North East and have plenty on hours on/in/through snow.)

 

[muskyman]

OK, here is my question. Have any of the people saying TTs are bad in snow actually driven in snow???.... I'm on snow 6 months a year, for the last 25 years.

Good god... They are great in snow. They are by far the best traction aiding device you can get for driving on the road in snow.

You are probably the same people that will tell me I will die because my 90 has a Detroit in the rear. Strangely enough nothing strange ever happens.....

I am 45 live in the upper midwest and love to drive in snow. I take my disco snow wheeling every chance I get and often drive round trip to upper migh in the winter for ski trips just under 400 miles each way. the roads in upper migh have a huge crown to them to allow the water to run off but yet they still stay frozen all winter long because they dont use any salt up there. We also have a family cabin in northern wisconsin and spend a bunch of time up there. those trips are 360 miles each way. The snow starts flying up there in october and lasts until the end of april. I drive in snowy conditions all the time.

I feel I can comment about snow handeling

Bottom line is that anything that connects the two front steering wheels together more then a open diff will compromise high speed steering in snow.

TT's are great for lots of people and I am not knocking them but lots of people over the years have experienced the way they act in snow and that needs to be mentioned when people are talking about them for snowy conditions.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Again, Torsen diffs do not create steering problems. They only exacerbate existing geometry problems. That is why some are claiming they cause problems, and some are saying they do not, because different setups will behave differently. A key factor for them is to have equal half-shaft angles on each side of an independent suspension, not an issue on a Land Rover obviously. After that, having zero scrub radius is important. The scrub radius will get screwed up if you use wheel spacers, your wheel offset (loosely related to backspacing) is not right, or you're running large tires.

Plenty of FWD and AWD rally cars use Torsens in the snow with no steering problems.

 

[muskyman]

Again, Torsen diffs do not create steering problems. They only exacerbate existing geometry problems. That is why some are claiming they cause problems, and some are saying they do not, because different setups will behave differently. A key factor for them is to have equal half-shaft angles on each side of an independent suspension, not an issue on a Land Rover obviously. After that, having zero scrub radius is important. The scrub radius will get screwed up if you use wheel spacers, your wheel offset (loosely related to backspacing) is not right, or you're running large tires.

Plenty of FWD and AWD rally cars use Torsens in the snow with no steering problems.

So have you ever driven a rover with a TT in the front?...didnt think so.

Using highly trained rally drivers as a example is a joke. The handeling characteristics they are tuning for are very different then what a average driver would be looking for.

Just because someone can adapt to something and get used to driving it does not then say there is not a issue. I have driven lots of peoples trucks that drive horrable and they thought they were just fine. Then those guys get into my truck with the swivels re-indexed and the Panhard geometry corrected and they see that a lifted truck can drive like a stocker.

Bottom line is the TT is not the best in snow, Is it horrable and will it cause you to crash?..No it is not and will not. But it is not the best option for snow. That was my point and is my opinion and one shared by lots of people.

 

[cooter]

I loved the TT in snow. I can't say it's any better than the ARB I have in the front now, but the TT did very well for me.

However, I value the ARB over the TT for my use of the truck. But IMO, there is nothing at all wrong with a TT.

A TT does affect the handeling of the vehicle, though. Your vehicle will want to follow the "hump" in the road. Meaning, you will often feel a pull to either the left or right when there is a hump in the road for water drainage. It's not like a low tire pulling you to one side-or-the-other - it's not that bad at all - but there is a slight pull that will change directions depending on the hump in the road.

The steering is also a whole lot "tighter". Meaning, the TT causes your steering wheel to self-center. When coming out of a turn the steering wheel wants to, more-or-less, rip out of your hands. Obviously it not that bad, but a firmer grip on the steering wheel is needed until you get the feel of the TT in the front diff.

Nothing wrong with a TT at all. It's 100x better than the stock Rover diff's.

 

[muskyman]

thats a very good description of the handeling of a TT, the part about the crown in the road is 100% on the mark and why I brought that up earlier in this thread. When the crown of the road is ice covered the handeling can be white knuckly for sure.

Great Post!

 

[R_Lefebvre]

A TT does affect the handeling of the vehicle, though. Your vehicle will want to follow the "hump" in the road. Meaning, you will often feel a pull to either the left or right when there is a hump in the road for water drainage. It's not like a low tire pulling you to one side-or-the-other - it's not that bad at all - but there is a slight pull that will change directions depending on the hump in the road.

This is a valid complaint, it's very true. My car with a Torsen tramlines on crowned roads fairly significantly. If the road is in really bad shape with "ruts" due to heavy truck traffic, you have to pay attention. In fact, you can't use full throttle at all on really bad roads or you'll end up in a ditch. But that's a 2600lb FWD with 250hp. A far cry from a Rover. And this is not "torque steer" it's something completely different, as there's zero torque steer on flat roads. I've also never had a problem on roads where I'm getting different traction side to side, like one wheel on tarmac and the other gravel. I really see this drivability quirk to be minor on a 6000lb AWD truck with 200ish hp.

Originally I planned to get dual TT's for my Rover, because others have said it works really well with the factory TC, and the diffs are cheaper, and maybe I'd get away without upgrading the axles. But I know that realistically, being full locked is just better sometimes. I've been on a very steep, sandy climb with a diagonal wash, where I'm trying to get the TC to kick in to climb out, but the lightly weighed rear wheel just spun and dug and dug before the TC kicked in. I know if I'd stayed in it it might have worked, but that's hard to do as the truck leans over more and more. The heavily weighted rear wheel had tons of traction, and would have had no problem with a locker.

That, and I know that eventually the SLABS system will crap out on me and I'll just remove it. Then I won't have such good performance from the TT's.