firemansxterra
Adventurer
i like where you are going with this Gier...i know you may be catching some flack on here, but anytime we have more options opened up to us it can only be a good thing...keep us posted on your results
RTT why so much $$$$
- Thread starter gier
- Start date
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
firemansxterra said:
I don't see anyone giving him a hard time about building his own RTT, quite the opposite actually.
The point being stressed here, is that manufacturing & distributing a RTT is an expensive proposition...particularly if quality components are being used. Then factor in the ultimate pricing consideration (supply v demand), and you end up with an expensive tent.
Now, if someone simply enjoys building things like this...then that is a whole new ball game. Price usually isn't as important then. But if it is done just to save $$$...then a DIY approach probably isn't the right way to go.
spressomon
Expedition Leader
The premise of this thread didn't start out as a 'building my own RTT' thread. It started out from an accusatory tone. I think that is what 'riled the troops'.
I think we are all curious and excited to see any type of home brew product. And for a variety of reasons: Admiration for that person's design, fab and creativity skills/talents/gifts being on top of my list at least.
I don't have as much issue with the price of the commercially available RTT's but more of a problem with the design deficiencies. Being critical of the details I am somewhat dismayed at the lack of interest from the manufacturers of improving, refining and making their products better.
I think we are all curious and excited to see any type of home brew product. And for a variety of reasons: Admiration for that person's design, fab and creativity skills/talents/gifts being on top of my list at least.
I don't have as much issue with the price of the commercially available RTT's but more of a problem with the design deficiencies. Being critical of the details I am somewhat dismayed at the lack of interest from the manufacturers of improving, refining and making their products better.
wow this is quickly becoming the "thread of the week"
latinoguy
Adventurer
The low down
Retail price: material Cost + labor + gross margin % or dollar goals + wholesale resale profit goal.
Many times it is a positioning strategy on what the end retail price comes up to. I have have worked as a product manager....That is how it works. A roof top tent can be made much more cheaply if there would be volumes involved....Since there is not I would assume, the manufacturer has to get their money's worth in the few...This is THE ROI. Return on Investment.
How much gross margin dollars are you guys making on these things.. Do share?
Retail price: material Cost + labor + gross margin % or dollar goals + wholesale resale profit goal.
Many times it is a positioning strategy on what the end retail price comes up to. I have have worked as a product manager....That is how it works. A roof top tent can be made much more cheaply if there would be volumes involved....Since there is not I would assume, the manufacturer has to get their money's worth in the few...This is THE ROI. Return on Investment.
How much gross margin dollars are you guys making on these things.. Do share?
soonenough
Explorer
The thing that shocks me more than anything else about this thread is how civil it has remained. Being a long-time reader on TTORA (vs. fairly new around here) this is really surprising and impressive. On TTORA (the main boards at least, not the individual state chapter sections), a thread that started out like this one wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes before everyone would've been cussing each other, throwing up rainbow flags, etc. and would've eventually been closed. But since it's been allowed to continue, I've learned quite a bit about the manufacturing and materials that go into RTTs that I might not have otherwise. I continue to be more and more impressed with the quality of information and the level of courtesy here. Thanks to everyone for acting like adults...I know I can't be the only one that's benefited from this thread :bowdown:
Streakerfreak
Jan-Kee
soonenough said:
This is one of the reasons I gave up on TTORA and only come here. Most of us say something out of character from time to time here, but at least we won't bring ourselves down to that kind of knuckle dragging behavior.
Last edited:
latinoguy said:
I bet he can make one that's almost as good, but much cheaper, especially if you "reverse engineer" from an existing design- the difference is that his labor is free, and there is no profit margin. When its all said and done, he'll probably have a ton of hours into it, but it will certainly be much cheaper than the bought tents.
Post photos, dude!
Yes I am reverse engineering my RTT just like every other MFG does. Unless you come up with a totally new item never seen on this earth before I guarantee you some one has looked at it before the came up with their own design. That’s one of the many ways to strike up creativity. If you like to get into the ethical aspects of this then you need to go and talk to every manufacturing house in the world.
I am using my labor no one else’s. I won’t have a ton of labor into it. Once you know what you want it’s not hard to bang it out. The roof bows went together quick. Took next to nothing in time to do it. Proper tools and machinery help here. Tools and machinery are amortized over their life so over time the more manufacturing you do the less they cost and then the more profit you can have in your item. But I digress as I am not going to make this for resale any way. As of right now all the aluminum I have for this project has cost me next to nothing. I bought it as scrap from another manufacturing company. If you do your home work as many manufacturing companies do you can often work with other companies and help keep your costs down. I / we do this with many projects we build. But in any case this thread has had a lot of info thrown in there. I will post all the pics and a write up when I am done with it.
I am using my labor no one else’s. I won’t have a ton of labor into it. Once you know what you want it’s not hard to bang it out. The roof bows went together quick. Took next to nothing in time to do it. Proper tools and machinery help here. Tools and machinery are amortized over their life so over time the more manufacturing you do the less they cost and then the more profit you can have in your item. But I digress as I am not going to make this for resale any way. As of right now all the aluminum I have for this project has cost me next to nothing. I bought it as scrap from another manufacturing company. If you do your home work as many manufacturing companies do you can often work with other companies and help keep your costs down. I / we do this with many projects we build. But in any case this thread has had a lot of info thrown in there. I will post all the pics and a write up when I am done with it.
Ursa Minor
Active member
$ervice & overhead...
Retail price: material Cost + labor + gross margin % or dollar goals + wholesale resale profit goal.
As a small manufacturer who frequently hears "why is that so much", I'll offer that if it is mechanical in nature, it will eventually wear out, or on occasion be used in ways not intended by the designer.
Included in a price is the time used to answer questions before/during/after sale, troubleshoot issues, write instructions, and perhaps some allocation to stock spare parts for repairs in the future
Down the line from manufacturer to distributor to the retail shelf, there's a lot of unseen overhead costs in business, from insurance to the power bill to unique equipment or tools. The other factor impacting price for overland products will be the seasonality of outdoor equipment, since the rent must be paid in the off season too.
A one-off home built product always seems cheap since the labor is free, but one would need to allocate a share of rent, electricity or even internet service to a project if your figuring out the total landed cost.
We all go to restaurants on occasion and pay more than the ingredients cost at the grocery store, but in my case that's 'cause my cooking skills are limited!
cheers
John
Retail price: material Cost + labor + gross margin % or dollar goals + wholesale resale profit goal.
As a small manufacturer who frequently hears "why is that so much", I'll offer that if it is mechanical in nature, it will eventually wear out, or on occasion be used in ways not intended by the designer.
Included in a price is the time used to answer questions before/during/after sale, troubleshoot issues, write instructions, and perhaps some allocation to stock spare parts for repairs in the future
Down the line from manufacturer to distributor to the retail shelf, there's a lot of unseen overhead costs in business, from insurance to the power bill to unique equipment or tools. The other factor impacting price for overland products will be the seasonality of outdoor equipment, since the rent must be paid in the off season too.
A one-off home built product always seems cheap since the labor is free, but one would need to allocate a share of rent, electricity or even internet service to a project if your figuring out the total landed cost.
We all go to restaurants on occasion and pay more than the ingredients cost at the grocery store, but in my case that's 'cause my cooking skills are limited!
cheers
John
elcoyote
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0004
Well said John.Ursa Minor said:
A few years ago we set out to make our own roof tents and quickly found that there is a huge range in price for fabric. Case in point is that the ARB, Open Sky, Cartop Tent, Rooftop Tent, Camping Lab are all made by the same company (Shanghai Fosset) using the exact same platform materials and hardware. The difference between them is the quality of the fabric. Go ahead and price out Sunbrella vs. Oxford nylon and you'll quickly see.
Hats off to the home built scavenger that can put something together for pennies on the dollar compared to buying one.
When it comes to ground tents, I use a 4 season Mountain Hardware, paid over $600 for it 7 years ago. For RTT, I use both Eezi Awn & MyWay RTT. All of these products are tried, true and tested. I have never spent a wet or uncomfortable night in any of them.
The worst 3 nights I ever spent in an RTT were while testing a product from Shanghai Fosset... You get what you pay for. If you're building your own, don't sabotage your efforts by using poor quality materials. Good luck on your project, we cheer on your efforts and we hope that you inspire the other DIY folks here on ExPo
Last edited:
latinoguy
Adventurer
Included in a price is the time used to answer questions before/during/after sale, troubleshoot issues, write instructions, and perhaps some allocation to stock spare parts for repairs in the future [/QUOTE]Ursa Minor said:
Agreed, This is called the market research phase: how big a market, how many can I sell, What is the price a customer is willing to pay....
[/QUOTE]Down the line from manufacturer to distributor to the retail shelf, there's a lot of unseen overhead costs in business, from insurance to the power bill to unique equipment or tools. The other factor impacting price for overland products will be the seasonality of outdoor equipment, since the rent must be paid in the off season too.[/QUOTE]
True enough, this is reflected on your Profit and Loss as SGNA...selling, & general admin expenses...you gotta pay yourself, the ladlord, and your people...suppliers, etc.
Mid size manufacturing companies realized in the 80s and 90s to find ways to cut costs due to strong distribution pressure from the Walmarts, Home Depots, Etc. etc... And the solution was to outsource much of their component materials to Asia...China Inc. India, and Latin America...
Why can't boutique manufacturers do that today? people are willing to pay a premium for American, or European made products...because there is a perception of quality...and most of the time it rings true. Unless I come up with a great marketing slogan and make you believe that you have to pay a premium price because my marketing strategy says so....
Why is some water selling for $100 a bottle?
quality is a function of price...unit volumes can affect how much it costs...
BIGdaddy
Expedition Leader
2aroundtheworld said:
agreed.
if everyone was buying them...they WOULD be cheaper. (there are $500.00 REI tents which are very nice, but there are also 70.00 walmart jobs that do the job just fine) Heck, we had a 40.00 kelty tent that went through several weeks up in Glacier national park...lol...I haven't thought for a minute that we SHOULD have been better equipped (we field tested, and it was fine, so we took it, and it was fine.
)btw, i ground tent, but i used a RTT for years (autohome maggiolina) and find the ground tent to be better suited.
I think the guys who are travelling via foot, bike, motobike, car, small truck who use a ground tent for simplicity are no less prepared for the weather than a RTT user. I'll bet they use the money they WOULD have spend on a spendy RTT, and spend it in gas/food being OUT ON THE ROAD. money better spent? oh yeah.
play nice.
Brian
Last edited:
goodtimes
Expedition Poseur
BIGdaddy said:
I don't think it is a matter of being better prepared....it is more a matter of convenience and comfort. A RTT allows me to roll into a camp site, not have to worry about water flow through the site (setting up a ground tent in a sheet flow area isn't the best way to stay dry), not have to clear sticks/rocks out, not have to pound stakes into uber-hard ground, not nearly as much of a struggle in the wind (even worse if you are solo--you know rain flys are a pain when the wind picks up), I have a 3" thick mattress, etc. But all that does not mean I am *better* prepared ... it just means that I approach being prepared from a different angle than someone with a ground tent. Not better, just different.
And for the record, I use both a ground tent and a RTT, depending on the situation. When I can afford the weight and size of the RTT, it is worth every penny I spent on it, and I did not skip a single trip because of the cost (it was not a matter of "do I buy a RTT, OR, do I go on a trip"...)