Snow chains on 4 x 4 trucks.

[computeruser]

This is something I've always wondered about... I'm Canadian, driven in snow my whole life. I've never used chains, don't even know where to buy them. (litterally, don't think they're even available) For me, snow storms just make the drive more fun.

Do you just get so much more snow in the mountains, or is it just that people aren't used to driving in snow? I'd be curious to hear from somebody who's lived in Canada or Alaska, but experienced "snow chain required" driving in CA? Is it that there's so much snow, or is the whole thing silly.

I've had my truck stuck in snow so deep the axles and floorpan were buried in the snow and the tires were off the ground. The truck just won't move, period, you have to dig it out. But that was off-road.

People here seem to be talking about having snow chains "for control" which strikes me as being silly. I can't see how lose floppy bits of metal on your tires would help anything.

I used to have a VW Fox with 155/80/13 Blizzaks that I rallied and ice raced. I've driven so fast on snow that the tires are snow-planing and not making contact with the road. The car gets a little squirely, but if you're steady on the wheel it's pretty fun. I can't see how having chain between the tire and the road would help?

For reference, the snow plow trucks, even the private contractors with pickups... nobody uses snow chains.

What's the deal? What depth of snow are we talking?

I've wondered the exact thing, having successfully navigated roads after snowfalls of sufficient depth to end up ripping my exhaust apart at the one clamped union in an otherwise welded system.

Guess I gotta go out west some winter and check it out myself...

 

[Martyn]

This is something I've always wondered about... I'm Canadian, driven in snow my whole life. I've never used chains, don't even know where to buy them. (litterally, don't think they're even available) For me, snow storms just make the drive more fun.

Do you just get so much more snow in the mountains, or is it just that people aren't used to driving in snow? I'd be curious to hear from somebody who's lived in Canada or Alaska, but experienced "snow chain required" driving in CA? Is it that there's so much snow, or is the whole thing silly.

I've had my truck stuck in snow so deep the axles and floorpan were buried in the snow and the tires were off the ground. The truck just won't move, period, you have to dig it out. But that was off-road.

People here seem to be talking about having snow chains "for control" which strikes me as being silly. I can't see how lose floppy bits of metal on your tires would help anything.

I used to have a VW Fox with 155/80/13 Blizzaks that I rallied and ice raced. I've driven so fast on snow that the tires are snow-planing and not making contact with the road. The car gets a little squirely, but if you're steady on the wheel it's pretty fun. I can't see how having chain between the tire and the road would help?

For reference, the snow plow trucks, even the private contractors with pickups... nobody uses snow chains.

What's the deal? What depth of snow are we talking?

Donner Summit get an average of 420 inches (1067 cm.) of snow a year.

It can be very heavy, it's called "Sierra Cement"

It can drop 6-8 feet (1.83 M - 2.44 M) in one dump

Interstate 80 with runs over Donner Summit is one of the busiest freeways in North America.

The good news is, it's one of the best places to ride and ski in the world.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Not even at Canadian Tire? Man, I thought they carried everything!

Nope, not even at Canadian Tire. Don't think I've seen them on shelves for 20 years. Ever since Blizzaks were invented.

It can drop 6-8 feet (1.83 M - 2.44 M) in one dump

But surely no wheeled vehicle can move in snow that deep?

I took my Subaru WRX out into a snowy field once with Dunlop Wintersport M3 tires. The snow was a good 12" deep with drifts up to 24". The car plowed through it far enough until the belly pan was lifted up on top of the snow, and the tires dug holes till the suspension was at full droop without finding solid ground and that was it. I was stuck until some snowmobilers passed by.

Good tires will give you control and mobility until they can't touch the ground anymore. At that point, I can't see how even chains help? That's what I'm asking.

 

[Martyn]

Nope, not even at Canadian Tire. Don't think I've seen them on shelves for 20 years. Ever since Blizzaks were invented.



But surely no wheeled vehicle can move in snow that deep?

I took my Subaru WRX out into a snowy field once with Dunlop Wintersport M3 tires. The snow was a good 12" deep with drifts up to 24". The car plowed through it far enough until the belly pan was lifted up on top of the snow, and the tires dug holes till the suspension was at full droop without finding solid ground and that was it. I was stuck until some snowmobilers passed by.

Good tires will give you control and mobility until they can't touch the ground anymore. At that point, I can't see how even chains help? That's what I'm asking.

I've driven with the snow level even with the hood. It's the wonderful thing about snow it has a huge variation in free water content and therefore density.

With snow dropping at sometime in excess of 1 foot per hour (305 mm) the plows have a difficult time keeping up with it. It's normal to drive on 6 inches to 1 foot of snow (150 -305 mm).

Chains aid in traction both up hill and downhill. Snow tires with out studs do very little for you on ice. It's especially interesting traveling in stop and go traffic, on ice, on down hill sections. After you come to a stop the heat of the tires melts the top layer of ice and the vehicle drifts sideways until the heat is dissipated.

 

[madizell]

Personal experience over the past umpteen years has been that snow tires give better winter traction than summer tires, studded winter tires give you perhaps 10% better traction than unstudded on ice, but do little for snow, chains will give you better traction than winter tires studded or not, and the new generation ice and snow tires offer better traction on snow and ice than studded winters. I would expect but do not know that chains offer more traction than ice and snow tires could, but chains and snow tires operate on completely different parameters. Thousands of micro-biting edges can outperform displacement or edge bite offered by chains, if snow conditions are right. Chains were originally intended to give non-snow or non-mud tires additional traction in snow or mud back in a time when no one offered specialty tires or no one could afford them, and are for very temporary use. If you already have dedicated tires, chains offer only marginal increases in performance, and limit your ability to drive the vehicle.

For the past 10 years I have not used anything in Alaskan winter snow and ice than ice and snow rated tires. Before that I used studs. The ice tires offer more traction than studded snow tires under all conditions. If you feel uncomfortable driving on ice and snow with correct tires, I would suggest that chains are not going to give you the edge you need.

I understand that chains increase traction, but I still won't use chains.

 

[Martyn]

Personal experience over the past umpteen years has been that snow tires give better winter traction than summer tires, studded winter tires give you perhaps 10% better traction than unstudded on ice, but do little for snow, chains will give you better traction than winter tires studded or not, and the new generation ice and snow tires offer better traction on snow and ice than studded winters. I would expect but do not know that chains offer more traction than ice and snow tires could, but chains and snow tires operate on completely different parameters. Thousands of micro-biting edges can outperform displacement or edge bite offered by chains, if snow conditions are right. Chains were originally intended to give non-snow or non-mud tires additional traction in snow or mud back in a time when no one offered specialty tires or no one could afford them, and are for very temporary use. If you already have dedicated tires, chains offer only marginal increases in performance, and limit your ability to drive the vehicle.

For the past 10 years I have not used anything in Alaskan winter snow and ice than ice and snow rated tires. Before that I used studs. The ice tires offer more traction than studded snow tires under all conditions. If you feel uncomfortable driving on ice and snow with correct tires, I would suggest that chains are not going to give you the edge you need.

I understand that chains increase traction, but I still won't use chains.

It's all so subjective and dependent on the properties of the snow and ice you encounter. There is a whole section of science on the subject.

Take the science and add the variables of a vehicle and the variables of tires and just about anything can be "proven".

I think all you and I are saying is that given the conditions we have experienced this is what we find. Not really much to go on.

 

[mhiscox]

I live in the California Sierras, and snow storms and road controls are a part of life around here. [SNIP]

R2: Chains or traction devices are required on all vehicles except four wheel/ all wheel drive vehicles with snow-tread tires on all four wheels.

I could use some help, guys: If I read the Oregon rules correctly, in the condition that requires "chains or traction tires" for a 2wd vehicle, the traction tires have to be "severe winter rated" (with the mountain and snowflake symbol) of which there aren't all that many varieties. A rigorous, specific requirement, right?

However, it also seems that a four-wheel or all-wheel drive passenger vehicle is exempt from the chain requirement if it "has mud and snow, all-weather radial, or traction tires on all of its wheels." Now this seems real subjective, allowing for nothing more rigorous than a four-season radial, of which there are hundreds. More to the point, it would seem that those of us in 4x4 trucks running mud terrains are qualified to run without chains.

So two questions. First, do other western states have the "4x4s are OK mud and snow, all-weather radial, or traction tires on all of its wheels"? For example, in California, which Martyn says wants "snow tread tires," are M/Ts gonna qualify?

And second, am I confused, or am I right in thinking, as a class, mud terrain tires are pretty lame in snow and would not be a good choice for "chains required" driving even if the highway patrol will let you use them? Thanks.

 

[Martyn]

I could use some help, guys: If I read the Oregon rules correctly, in the condition that requires "chains or traction tires" for a 2wd vehicle, the traction tires have to be "severe winter rated" (with the mountain and snowflake symbol) of which there aren't all that many varieties. A rigorous, specific requirement, right?

However, it also seems that a four-wheel or all-wheel drive passenger vehicle is exempt from the chain requirement if it "has mud and snow, all-weather radial, or traction tires on all of its wheels." Now this seems real subjective, allowing for nothing more rigorous than a four-season radial, of which there are hundreds. More to the point, it would seem that those of us in 4x4 trucks running mud terrains are qualified to run without chains.

So two questions. First, do other western states have the "4x4s are OK mud and snow, all-weather radial, or traction tires on all of its wheels"? For example, in California, which Martyn says wants "snow tread tires," are M/Ts gonna qualify?

And second, am I confused, or am I right in thinking, as a class, mud terrain tires are pretty lame in snow and would not be a good choice for "chains required" driving even if the highway patrol will let you use them? Thanks.

Cal DOT who man the chain controls look for M&S on the tires when doing tire checks.

 

[R_Lefebvre]

I've driven with the snow level even with the hood. It's the wonderful thing about snow it has a huge variation in free water content and therefore density.

With snow dropping at sometime in excess of 1 foot per hour (305 mm) the plows have a difficult time keeping up with it. It's normal to drive on 6 inches to 1 foot of snow (150 -305 mm).

Chains aid in traction both up hill and downhill. Snow tires with out studs do very little for you on ice. It's especially interesting traveling in stop and go traffic, on ice, on down hill sections. After you come to a stop the heat of the tires melts the top layer of ice and the vehicle drifts sideways until the heat is dissipated.

Snow level with the hood? For real? I find it hard to believe, but... ok. I guess I should find some chains and then I don't need to bother buying a snowmobile?

I'm not even sure if I'm being sarcastic myself. It just sounds incredible. If chains can allow a truck to move with snow up to the hood, I want to get some. But I guess I'll have to mail order them from California.

Driving in 6" of snow in even a FWD car is a not much concern with proper snow tires. I know that much, and it's almost a daily occurance up here. At least last winter it was. Driving in 12" with FWD is even possible provided the car has enough belly pan clearance and skinny snows.

I've never experienced the heat problem you're speaking of.

Personal experience over the past umpteen years has been that snow tires give better winter traction than summer tires, studded winter tires give you perhaps 10% better traction than unstudded on ice, but do little for snow, chains will give you better traction than winter tires studded or not, and the new generation ice and snow tires offer better traction on snow and ice than studded winters. I would expect but do not know that chains offer more traction than ice and snow tires could, but chains and snow tires operate on completely different parameters. Thousands of micro-biting edges can outperform displacement or edge bite offered by chains, if snow conditions are right. Chains were originally intended to give non-snow or non-mud tires additional traction in snow or mud back in a time when no one offered specialty tires or no one could afford them, and are for very temporary use. If you already have dedicated tires, chains offer only marginal increases in performance, and limit your ability to drive the vehicle.

For the past 10 years I have not used anything in Alaskan winter snow and ice than ice and snow rated tires. Before that I used studs. The ice tires offer more traction than studded snow tires under all conditions. If you feel uncomfortable driving on ice and snow with correct tires, I would suggest that chains are not going to give you the edge you need.

I understand that chains increase traction, but I still won't use chains.

This is much more in line with my experiences and thoughts.

There's been a sea change in the world of winter tires ever since the Blizzak was invented 15-20 years ago. Studs offer only slightly better ice traction than ice rubber, yet studs have a huge detriment to traction on dry pavement.

There is also a marked difference between old style winter tires (Mud and Snows), and then you have your severe service (snowflake and mountain) snow tires, and then modern *ice* tires (also snowflake and mountain) are different still.

IMO, old style M+S snow tires should be discontinued. I see no need for them with current technology. It's as if we didn't install air bags in cars...

I also find most "all season" tires to be crap in winter compared to modern winters (severe service). I've had some OEM all seasons that were just deadly in snow.

I'm a big fan of Dunlop's Wintersport series. I find they offer excellent snow traction, combined with decent ice traction. They are relatively quiet and comfortable, while still offering good dry road traction. They have better summer traction than many "all seasons". They are the real "all season" tires these days. I believe they are severe service rated, but they are not ice tires.

Blizzaks and other competitive ice tires (there aren't many that really compete) offer mind altering levels of ice traction. I usually tell people what once you try Blizzaks, it's hard to feel safe on ice with anything less. You don't want to go back. These types of tires usually do sacrifice some snow traction, and lots of dry traction. The early Blizzaks were downright scary in a 155/80/13 on warm wet pavement.

I could use some help, guys: If I read the Oregon rules correctly, in the condition that requires "chains or traction tires" for a 2wd vehicle, the traction tires have to be "severe winter rated" (with the mountain and snowflake symbol) of which there aren't all that many varieties. A rigorous, specific requirement, right?

However, it also seems that a four-wheel or all-wheel drive passenger vehicle is exempt from the chain requirement if it "has mud and snow, all-weather radial, or traction tires on all of its wheels." Now this seems real subjective, allowing for nothing more rigorous than a four-season radial, of which there are hundreds. More to the point, it would seem that those of us in 4x4 trucks running mud terrains are qualified to run without chains.

This explains a lot to me.

First of all, there are TONS of severe service winter tires. TONS. About the only winter tires that do not have this rating are cheap $50 Walmart snows and other ultra cheap winter tires. Just about everything else achieves it these days.

So, any 2wd vehicle with modern winter tires doesn't need chains. Doesn't sound so extreme anymore.

4wd vehicles are fine as long as they have winter tires, all-season tires, or mud tires. Doesn't sound to extreme either, and the fact that even all-season tires are considered ok explains a LOT about the reality of driving on these roads.

This was very telling. Chains appear to be only a stop-gap measure for those who don't have at least all-season tires on AWD vehicles, or snow tires (even bad ones) on 2wd vehicles.

As a matter of comparison, Quebec last year passed a law requiring ALL vehicles to have snow tires ALL the time between November and April, PERIOD. This is the environment I learnd to drive in.

 

[madizell]

It's all so subjective and dependent on the properties of the snow and ice you encounter.

Not bickering here at all, but if the outcome is dependent on the properties of the snow and ice encountered, the situation is objective, not subjective, and you should be able to choose tires without regard to personal opinion. We are not so far apart. Some of the difference falls to how we each use the same language.

I first mounted Blizzaks (MZ-01's) on the Audi A6 Quattro back in 2000. I was astounded by the performance. In "normal" winter driving conditions in Alaska, I could actually launch the car from a stop sign, and could NOT get the tires to spin. I had to look for glare ice or glazed road conditions before I could get the tires to slip, and even then it was not a free for all. Between the Quattro system and the MZ-01's, I could drive with 90 percent or more of summer aggression without problems.

I was pulled over one snowy winter day in Eagle River for doing, no kidding, 35 in a 35 zone. I had passed some little old lady doing about 20 and scared to death of the snow, so it looked as if I were going fast, but I was not. The officer asked me what I thought of available traction on the road, which was covered with 4 to 6 inches of fresh snow over winter snow pack. He assumed I would say it was slick. Instead, I said traction was excellent, which absolutely stopped the conversation. The guy didn't know what to say. I suggested to him, politely, that since he was driving a Crown Vic on all season tires, he probably would have a completely different perspective, but that he really should A) get real tires; and B) go out and test drive a Quattro on Blizzaks, and he would know what I meant. I didn't even get a warning. What could the guy say?

 

[Martyn]

Let me say again that I worked on Donner Summit for 10 years and often drove the road when it was officially closed.

Snow up to the hood is absolutely accurate. It’s important to understand snow and the amount of free water it contains. It's the difference between Sierra Cement and Utah powder. Plowing through Utah powder is not an issue.

Additional notes;
When the snow was up to the hood I was not chained up.
The only time I have chained my vehicle in ten years is to get out of the parking lot at the ski resort.

 

[Martyn]

Not bickering here at all, but if the outcome is dependent on the properties of the snow and ice encountered, the situation is objective, not subjective, and you should be able to choose tires without regard to personal opinion. We are not so far apart. Some of the difference falls to how we each use the same language.

I first mounted Blizzaks (MZ-01's) on the Audi A6 Quattro back in 2000. I was astounded by the performance. In "normal" winter driving conditions in Alaska, I could actually launch the car from a stop sign, and could NOT get the tires to spin. I had to look for glare ice or glazed road conditions before I could get the tires to slip, and even then it was not a free for all. Between the Quattro system and the MZ-01's, I could drive with 90 percent or more of summer aggression without problems.

I was pulled over one snowy winter day in Eagle River for doing, no kidding, 35 in a 35 zone. I had passed some little old lady doing about 20 and scared to death of the snow, so it looked as if I were going fast, but I was not. The officer asked me what I thought of available traction on the road, which was covered with 4 to 6 inches of fresh snow over winter snow pack. He assumed I would say it was slick. Instead, I said traction was excellent, which absolutely stopped the conversation. The guy didn't know what to say. I suggested to him, politely, that since he was driving a Crown Vic on all season tires, he probably would have a completely different perspective, but that he really should A) get real tires; and B) go out and test drive a Quattro on Blizzaks, and he would know what I meant. I didn't even get a warning. What could the guy say?

I think you answer the question in part by stating the vehicle.

An Audi Quattro an extremely capable 4WD with wide track and low C of G.

and then adding one of the most capable tires Blizzaks.

My winter vehicles are a Subaru Legacy and a Jeep Grand Cherokee. The Legacy far out performs the Jeep in all snow conditions. The Jeep has a large mass and a high C of G.

Same tires on both vehicles.

 

[dlbrunner]

Chains are for stopping, not driving, IMHO. Any yahoo in a 4wd can drive around in snow and ice, it takes skill to stop and do it in a controlled fashion.

If one has no experience driving in snow and ice, telling them to develop skill without the "training wheels" of chains, is a pretty serious lapse in judgement. for those like myself with plenty of experience driving in winter conditions, sure forgoing chains is an option because of experience, but advising someone with no experience to not get a feel for a vehicles capability without chains.....I draw pause. That is not only putting the inexperienced driver at risk, but others on the road as well.

Often times that 4wd gives people a false blanket of security and they overestimate the capabilities of their vehicle in low traction circumstances.

Rant off.

Make sure you get a cheap waterproof rain slicker and pants to throw in with the chains and a set of gloves. Practice installation in the driveway, but remember putting chains on in the slush and grime when it is very cold is a whole lot different than on the side of the road at night by the casino outside of mogul......

I have been through check points near tahoe city under R3, one particular night they were only allowing 4wd with chains, totally unusual, yes, but it happened.

You also have to consider chain type. Cables are really good if you are going to be using them on regular roads, they are quiet and a little less harsh than actual chain units. If the chains will be seeing double duty off road, go with the actual chain type.

On a dually, you should be good with just the outers in the back. inners are a pain to install, trust me...

Also make sure those puppies are tight! drive a bit, stop and get out to check them, retighten as needed. "Throwing" a chain, then trying to unravel that from the axle is another no bueno.

 

[Dale]

I've read conflicting literature relating to airing up or airing down to get better traction on snow (without chains). Any personal experiences?

 

[R_Lefebvre]

Chains are for stopping, not driving, IMHO. Any yahoo in a 4wd can drive around in snow and ice, it takes skill to stop and do it in a controlled fashion.

If one has no experience driving in snow and ice, telling them to develop skill without the "training wheels" of chains, is a pretty serious lapse in judgement. for those like myself with plenty of experience driving in winter conditions, sure forgoing chains is an option because of experience, but advising someone with no experience to not get a feel for a vehicles capability without chains.....I draw pause. That is not only putting the inexperienced driver at risk, but others on the road as well.

Often times that 4wd gives people a false blanket of security and they overestimate the capabilities of their vehicle in low traction circumstances.

But, all Canadians learned to drive in the snow without chains. Looks like they don't really use them in scandinavian coutnries either, though there is some indication that they carry them for emergencies. They just use proper winter tires.

I do agree that 4wd gives you a false sense of security. It helps accelerate you to a speed at which you lose control and/or can't stop. With 2wd, it's so hard to accelerate that it reminds you that you won't be able to stop. It's a cliche up here about "SUV's go flying by you, then you pass them when they go into a ditch."

There's nothing wrong with advising people to learn to drive in snow with winter tires, rather than chains, as millions of other people around the world do just that. The trouble is trying to drive in the snow with summer tires or crap "All season" tires. I do not understand why so many people in Ontario continue to do this. Quebecers used snow tires as a matter of habit, and then they made it a law. In Ontario, they're less common. People struggle with all-seasons, they say All-seasons are fine, and snow tires are for sissies, and that's frankly stupid. I can remember one blizzard we had, when people at work couldn't get home. They all stayed in hotels close to work. I got home, didn't have a problem. And then other people are also crashing their cars more.

My inlaws won't use them either. "All seasons are fine, you just have to slow down." But then all the time they stay home during storms, when my wife and I are out and about, no problem at all.

Just defies logic.