Terra Pass -- CO2 credits

Ursidae69

Expedition Leader
So I found this website from a bumper sticker I saw in Santa Fe yesterday. It seems to me that the concept is that you fund clean energy projects through the purchase of your Terra Pass thus off setting your car's CO2 output.

http://www.terrapass.com/

My take: I think funding clean renewable energy is great and I support that, but the whole notion of off setting your own CO2 is just a feel good sort of thing. Though, if the feel good thing brings in money for clean energy projects, I guess the overall outcome is good.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Well, that made me spit coffee out my nose. You have to be kidding me!

Their slogan should state "You can go on about your normal way of living, guilt free!"

Just another way to sell more crap to the trendy people.
 
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Ursidae69

Expedition Leader
Kermit said:
Well, that made me spit coffee out my nose. You have to be kidding me!

Their slogan should state "You can go on about your normal way of living, guilt free!"

Just another way to sell more crap to the trendy people.


Oh come on Kermit, you don't want one of thier bumper stickers on your vehcile?? :shakin:
 

7wt

Expedition Leader
I am currenty lookng for a job, maybe I should become a carbon offset broker? Funny thing I heard the other day, this carbon foot print offset stuff is suppose to go towards buying trees. Well the new info on trees above the equator is they actually contribute to a hotter envornment. How? I don't know but that is the new low down. This stuff is enough to make my head spin. It is just a modern day dooms day prediction with a fiscal twist.
 

Ursidae69

Expedition Leader
crawler#976 said:
...sounds like someone figured out how to make a bunch of $$$.

Very true. While reading through their FAQ I read that they were a for-profit company. This concept seems better suited for a non-profit. If I were going to buy this deal, (which I'm not), I'd want to know how much of my dollar goes to the clean energy projects they support and the FAQ doesn't show that.
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Ursidae69 said:
Oh come on Kermit, you don't want one of thier bumper stickers on your vehcile?? :shakin:


Ummm...no...:)

I don't know about the rest of you. I am getting sick and tired hearing about being Green and Global Warming. It's all very trendy right now, where is this going to be in 10 years? Heck, as for being a trend, where's it going to be in 6 months from now!?

Sites like the one you listed, just goes to show how hyprocritical people are.
 
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Clutch

<---Pass
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Ursidae69

Expedition Leader
Kermit said:
Ummm...no...:)

I don't know about the rest of you. I am getting sick and tired hearing about being Green and Global Warming. It's all very trendy right now, where is this going to be in 10 years? Heck, as for being a trend, where's it going to be in 6 months from now!?

Sites like the one you listed, just goes to show how hyprocritical people are.


I agree that the site I linked is an exercise in hypocrisy, that is why I posted it, to spur discussion, but why are you sick and tired of hearing about being "green". I'm not sure what you mean but there isn't anything wrong with people not being hypocrites and living simpler using less resources. Sorry if you're sick of that. :smilies27
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Ursidae69 said:
I agree that the site I linked is an exercise in hypocrisy, that is why I posted it, to spur discussion, but why are you sick and tired of hearing about being "green". I'm not sure what you mean but there isn't anything wrong with people not being hypocrites and living simpler using less resources. Sorry if you're sick of that. :smilies27

The text below is in no way reflected towards you Ursidae69. General ramblings, about things in general about this Green movement.

Let me start off by saying, I want less (or no) pollution, clean air and water would be nice. I am all for consuming less, waste less, renew, reuse. More renewable energy sources. Would love to have a solar/wind powered house. Bio-fuel burning vehicles...(if they are found to be less polluting, from a nonfood source)...you catch my drift. "Oh lord, would please buy me some solar panels? All my friends have wind turbines, I need to make Amens..." ...sorry for the slaughter of your song Janice. :p

This what I don't like. People flying the Global Warming flag to sell products. If you were truely trying to be "green", you wouldn't buy more crap... The Earth is in a constant state of change. We are foolish to think we can stop or control those changes. It warms, it cools. To our knowledge, it always had, always will. (well, until the our sun swells, and cooks our little blue planet) We as humans, still do not, and may never truely understand why the Earth goes through these cycles. The Global Warming advocates, sure will tell you that we are to blame, and are trying to make us feel guilty for driving a car, flying in an airplane, while they are are flying in an airplane, ******? I don't know about you, I am just trying to eek out a living, and trying have a little fun before I die. Everything, and I mean everything we do this modern world requires the use of fossil fuels. It is simply mind boggling. How much we use. Unless we moderns, go back to living like the Amish. I really have no idea how we will ever get off of fossil fuels.

A client the other week, was reading the Green Issue of Vanity Fair. She looks up to me and says, "Where in the hell do these Hollywood people get off in telling me how to be earth friendly, when they themselves live a life of excess!?" I nodded in agreement. " I dunno..."

Carbon credits are total bull****. Who in the hell came up with that!? Sounds more like certain religion I know of. Simply live a life of sin, and hey, at the end, just repent. Then everything, is all fine and dandy...well, hell...sign me up for that. That sounds pretty damn good!

Sorry, I am sick of hearing the words "Green" and "Global Warming"....maybe it is the mouths the words are coming from.

Let's face it, it isn't fossil fuels that are the problem, people are, way too many of them. I don't hear Al Gore promoting that we get spayed or nuetered. No that would be atroshish, wouldn't it? Or at least promoting people to not have children. I know my choice not have them lessens the strain on the earth's resources. But, that wouldn't be very popular, would it? I know the guy with the wife and 2 kids driving the Prius, uses a heck of alot more resources than myself. Yet, he gives me a dirty look because my lifestyle is different than his. I get a heck of alot of flack from my "Green" friends for riding dirt bikes. Ummm...hey man, what about those kiddies you have!? How are you better than me?

I am growing to loath the green movement and the hypocrisy.

Or maybe it bothers me on a personal note.

Finally....fricken, finally,I can afford to ride dirt bikes. I have dreamed and dreamed when I was a kid to ride them motorcycles in the dirt. I wasn't allowed and we couldn't afford them when I was younger. Ya see, my father contracted MS in his mid twenties. Most of our money went to medical bills. My mother had to get a couple part time jobs, to pay for blood transfusions, among other things... I grew up with my dad in a wheelchair. I never had those father son adventures. My recent trip to Colorado, seeing some father son duos reminded me of that...made me quite sad really. (I wish my dad was here...type thoughts...) As I write this, he lays in his bed barely able to move, the MS has been slowly engulfing his body over the past 30 years. He is only 57 years of age. A horrible thing to witness. Because of that, I try to live life to the fullist, I'll be damned if some hyprocrital green SOB, is going to stop me. For f%@ks sake. We are here for so little time....Eat, Drink, and sleep around with Mary. Geeesh!

So anyway...a little personal history. I now can ride those dirt bikes, and let me tell you, it is the most fun one can have with their clothes on. Now, I have some new environmental person telling me, that my passion is evil. I am killing the earth. Global Warming and Green are being used as ammo against my passion, my dream. Trails are closing everywhere. Finally living my dream. Now it's wrong. I truely don't know why we can't share the trails. In my view the Sierra Clubbers are selfish, unwilling to share the great outdoors, which I love. We ALL cause damage one way or another. My passion uses far less resources than that Prius....(growing to hate those cars, or maybe it's the social statement they make)....My bike is steel, aluminum, and plastic....nearly 100% recyclable. More than I can say for that Hybrid. (I am using that car as a reference, because I had a run in with an owner of one)

There is the erosion issue...ummm sir, I don't know if you checked or not. The Earth itself is the largest cause of erosion.

The emissions issue....yeah yeah...your Prius still burns fossil fuels,too....what do you think those tires and plastics are made from?

The noise issue...ok, you got me there...would be nice if the KTM was silent. 86db isn't bad.

Knowing that you, me, the Earth, our sun, the solar system are all born to die. All of this, really truely doesn't matter...the Earth does a good job of whiping itself clean and starting over. There have been 5 known mass extinctions. I don't feel too bad for finally living my dream. So, I just want to have a little fun before I meet my maker (that is, if there is one), please don't make me feel guilty for doing so.

I could sell my KTM, my VW bus, my Tacoma, ride my bicycle to work, (which I do when the temperature drops)....I could sell all of those things, buy solar panels to mount on the roof. For what I ask? To feel a little less guilt, to get the "nod" from the guy in the Hybrid down the street? Those fossil fuel burning evil beasts, give me a life of adventure...I choose adventure.




-Ok, end rant- I'll crawl back into my hole now...
 
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DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Kermit,

Fantastic rant. A great read. Thank you!

Seriously, I think (and I can speak for me and Jonathan) you voiced much of what we feel, much of the time. I feel caught in the middle between the "types" you talk about. Our green friends or acquaintances seem to sometimes judge me for liking to explore in a 4x4 (and just wait til I get my motorcycle!) and that I carry a gun and shoot for fun, and our more traditional friends (for lack of a better "label," which I hate) seem to sometimes judge me for being a conservationist. Sigh. I hate labels. I hate judgementalism.

Because judgementalism is what really it's getting down to that you hate. That people think they're special and better than you or me because they drive a Prius, recycle, and send $100 a year to The Nature Conservancy. Or let's be fair, other people are judgemental and think they're better because they drive an American-built vehicle, belong to VFW, and send $100 a year to the Blue Ribbon Coalition.

Dare I say that what you are reacting to is not global warming or being green per se (because you already are a conservationist and you are aware of what's happening in the world) - it's the attitudes of those who are pushing it. I couldn't agree more. I moved way "right" in my views after spending years every day hanging out with very radical, green environmentalists (I ran Sky Island Alliance in Tucson - I still love their mission and support what they do - just not their basic politics!).

But those folks by and large, who called themselves liberal and would do protests and all that, in the end were so judgemental and sanctimonious. I didn't like it. I rebelled! (Being the executive director gave me latitude - and I did have a lot of fun showing up on SIA hikes with my holster on my hip, or at pot lucks with a big old slab of roasted elk meat . . . )

Anyway, what I would like to throw out there though is this thing against carbon credits and global warming.

Okay, I agree - the whole "trade your evil lifestyle for a quick and dirty Get Out of Jail for Free Card" thing really makes me crazy. I H-A-T-E I-T. The TerraPass thing is just so . . . hypocritical.

And I agree that it's a lot more complicated than just fossil fuels - that human population is also a big factor. But just because you're hating the messenger doesn't mean throw out the message. Global warming is an issue, and there is no doubt people are causing it. So what to do about it?

Here's my dilemma. I work for a conservation organization that supports science and community-based work to protect landscapes and wildlife in East Africa. One of the main groups we're supporting is working on some really cutting-edge stuff - without getting into it too much, basically they are close to having a "formula" for how to predict what a "minium viable conservation area" would be for a given landscape to protect the most species for the long run (hopefully perpetuity).

That's a useful tool because up til now no one could quantify this number - it's always been a "pick a number out of the sky" thing. And as you pointed out: population is the big factor here. We MUST know what we need to set aside now to make a difference as more people move into the world's wild places.

Okay, so the second biggest factor besides people IS global warming. Let's set aside the "who's causing it" debate. Fact is, the glaciers on Kilimanjaro will be GONE in a decade. Rainforest on its slopes are disappearing. Swamps are drying up.

Alright, I'm getting to the dilemma. Finally. This group - which includes some of the best conservation biologists in the world, several on my board of directors - wants African Conservation Fund to help develop a way people in the First World can support direct on-the-ground conservation in East Africa by making contributions - which would be linked to an actual, calculated carbon-offset. Because using their formula for MVCA, they will be able to calculate how much natural carbon is preserved in-situ in the East African savannahs we are working to protect (turns out this region has even more longterm carbon in the plants and soil and animals than anywhere else on earth).

Now this is not the same as "trading carbon credits" but it's close. What it would mean is that I could say to you: Kermit, you care about your impact on the planet. You love your lifestyle, you love to explore by truck and motorcycle. And you also want to make a difference on the planet. So by investing $100 or $500 or $1000 in preserving XYZ Conservation Area in the East African savannahs, you are helping to save XXX tons of carbon - the equivalent of XX years (or XXX miles of trips) or whatever.

So my question is: would that totally make you crazy against what we're doing?

Or would you say, Hey, they are giving me a real thing they are protecting and letting me know that it really does offset the impact of my footprint on the planet. I dig it. Sign me up.

My thinking now is this: people want to help, people do care, but they do want something tangible they can understand that they are protecting. That's why Nature Conservancy was so successful - they bought land. Protected forever. Easy. That's why Save the Elephants is so successful. You give us money. We protect elephants. Clear. Precise.

Those of us who try to raise money to protect big landscapes find it harder to sell.

Like it or not global warming and carbon stuff is in the news and people at least are thinking about it.

Is it so bad that I can raise money for tangible conservation - that's so important, by the way, even if it's far away in Africa, it's one of the most incredible and bio-rich places on the planet?

I would really appreciate thoughtful comments and questions and discourse on this!

Because my board wants to move forward on it . . .

Roseann

[PS - we really need to get an ExPo group together for beers soon - gotta meet you in person Kermit!]
 

Clutch

<---Pass
Roseann,

We need to set a date for the Tucson Chapter and get some beers.

Here is a question for you. Has it ever been found out how much carbon flora actually absorbs? I researched it a bit. From my understanding, we are still clueless. What sparked my interest, was one of those carbon credit deals. Drive your car, plant a tree type thing. Which, Alice thinks I am going over board on the planting thing...I can't seem to stop planting trees...:D

It got me wondering, Well, how much carbon does a tree absorb? Then how many trees would you have to plant to offset your carbon output? Does the tree you are buying, absorb enough carbon, to equal the ammount you are putting out driving to get the tree?

Should we save the planet? I often wonder this. Do we humans deserve to have it? Look how we treat each other all in the name of greed and power. Should we try to control global warming for the rest of the species? I think so, but, for humanity, I am unsure.

Americans are used to comfort and convenience. I don't think, we in general will sacrafice our way of living in the name of being green. We like powerful cars, huge homes, climate control (in the our homes and vehicles), fast food, etc...Look at the three most popular sports in America; Baseball, Football, and Nascar. A tremendous use of resources, all in the name of entertainment. Hollywood should be thrown in there too, (for entertainment value and waste of resources.) Do you really think the masses are going to give those up? Unless we have a catastrophic economic crash. I don't see it going away. I understand the need for competition, I do not understand the fans. Being truely green will be among the few. The masses need to be entertained, because they can't entertain themselves.

I have a hard time with someone telling me I need to buy a shirt made out of bamboo, instead of cotton, while they wear diamonds. Tell me again how we get diamonds? I forgot. More hypocrisy The star they are helping has 4 kids and his play room is bigger than my whole house. But, hey! he uses CFL's it must be ok...give me a break. I don't use CFL's and my electrical usage is well below the average American's usage. I will admit, at least they are bringing awareness. Are the means by which they are doing so, truely green, I am not quite sure.

Final question, why in the heck do solar panels cost so much? :p Is it feasable that Tucson put up a mass solar array instead of our coal/natural gas burning electrical plant...Since coal is so much cheaper, probably not. We have the acreage, just look at all of those rooftops. Without government subsidies, I don't see how the average Joe, like myself, can afford such renewable energy sources, without a great sacrafice. Most of us are just trying to get by, some raising familes...it is hard enough.

Apparently Tucson is going solar, but, they are going to raise electrical cost to the consumer, even though it doesn't cost them any more. Once the coal based electrical cost equals what solar cost, the consumer will have no choice, but, to go solar. That information was either on PBS or an article Alice read...we can't seem to find it.

It is going to cost alot money to be green. I don't see the general population, making financial sacrafices to do so. I myself do what I can, but, I have my limits.

Yeah, I could go solar, but, too much sacrafice for me. I am not a rich man. Do you know how many haircuts I would have to do!? That is one hell of a nice Adventure bike and the adventure to along with it.

DesertRose said:
Kermit,


Is it so bad that I can raise money for tangible conservation - that's so important, by the way, even if it's far away in Africa, it's one of the most incredible and bio-rich places on the planet?

No it is not bad, it is your passion. I support passions.
 
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DesertRose

Safari Chick & Supporting Sponsor
Hi Kermit -

When shall we do a Tucson ExPo meet?

My travel schedule is insane - and so is Jonathan's right now. Both of us won't actually be in Tucson together until after Labor Day . . .

Let's see about doing it after that.

As for your question, yes the amount of carbon absorbtion by plants has been quantified (I'll find sources for you). Most of the outfits that push that kind of carbon stuff are big on replanting rainforests and temporate forests with more plantations. Unfortunately many of these are non-native, and that's just not what we're after.

What we're more interested in is preserving existing wild habitat that hasn't been screwed up. Existing biodiversity (I know, it's a buzzword). It's all very complex, and the folks I'm working with are seeking funding now to get some of the final research sorted out. We want to make it simple, and we want it to make sense.

Which is why I'd like to get people's feedback on the idea . . .

And I agree with you on all the points below - people won't make personal sacrifices to go green. They want it easy. Al Gore's mansion is what, like 10,000 square feet and uses 12X the energy an average house does, and he says he's concerned about global warming? Gimme a break. Carbon neutral is just a palliative for a wasteful lifestyle!

BUT, here I am wanting to get a piece of that, right?

Oh well. If the rich aren't going to change their lifestyle but want to give away money to salve their conscience, I'm happy to take it and use it for something much better :)

By the way, I just found this on Snopes.com while looking for the size of Gore's place - you have to read it. Whoa!
 

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