The most expensive overlander?!
- Thread starter gjackson
- Start date
Note the lack of a safety strap to prevent rolling off the tilt table - they must have been pretty confident it would pass - given that it is a customers undelivered / unpaidfor rig!
PLEASE tell me that is either photoshopped or secured somewhere we can't see!
That's just crazy!
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
Culture Clash
To harp on a favorite theme of mine: "Overlanding" ain't "Off Roading."
Most Americans are used to a world of great roads where you really have to look for a trail and then they want the biggest, meanest trail they can find. Driving across Africa is not like that. There are very few places you want to go that are not served by big Mercedes trucks. (In fact, that is one reason so many roads are a mess!)
For the long range overlander, especially those of us with a few kilometers on our tails, driving and living comfort are the goal. I am tired of squat toilets and weeks without a shower. (Sadly, that isn't going to change any time soon.) So if you want a heated/cooled kitchen/bedroom, with a bath, AND you want to take it across Africa, you will end up with a bigger truck.
If you want to drive the Rubicon and sleep in a tent, then you want a smaller truck.
Much of this conversation is apples and oranges.
To harp on a favorite theme of mine: "Overlanding" ain't "Off Roading."
Most Americans are used to a world of great roads where you really have to look for a trail and then they want the biggest, meanest trail they can find. Driving across Africa is not like that. There are very few places you want to go that are not served by big Mercedes trucks. (In fact, that is one reason so many roads are a mess!)
For the long range overlander, especially those of us with a few kilometers on our tails, driving and living comfort are the goal. I am tired of squat toilets and weeks without a shower. (Sadly, that isn't going to change any time soon.) So if you want a heated/cooled kitchen/bedroom, with a bath, AND you want to take it across Africa, you will end up with a bigger truck.
If you want to drive the Rubicon and sleep in a tent, then you want a smaller truck.
Much of this conversation is apples and oranges.
jesusgatos
Explorer
We can't see whether it's attached to the vehicle or not, but there's some type of hoist that's clearly visible in that picture.
Note the lack of a safety strap to prevent rolling off the tilt table - they must have been pretty confident it would pass - given that it is a customers undelivered / unpaidfor rig!
whatcharterboat
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Hi Guys, I don't normally stick my nose in here, but to add my .50cents in defence of cabovers, I can say that the MANs that are used here in Oz are definitely not slow or uncomfortable. The professional drivers that run them in outback tour companies complain of the opposite. You don't often hear this, but some of the owners say that they are TOO comfortable and as a result, the drivers tend to over drive them for the conditions.
Massive tyres, air suspension, airbag mounted cab and air seats tend to give that floating sensation. Believe me, without even blinking, they will take potholes and bumps that would severely slow mere mortal Lancruisers, etc.
BTW The MAN I'm working on at the moment has a pendant next to the drivers seat that can quickly adjust air pressure to each corner of the suspension so I suppose that would mean that you could (to a degree) compensate for off camber conditions quickly and effectively. They are still not a Mog by any means, but for the expedition travel that Diplostrat is describing I think they're one of the best options. Certainly in the 10 to 15 ton GVM class anyway.
Massive tyres, air suspension, airbag mounted cab and air seats tend to give that floating sensation. Believe me, without even blinking, they will take potholes and bumps that would severely slow mere mortal Lancruisers, etc.
BTW The MAN I'm working on at the moment has a pendant next to the drivers seat that can quickly adjust air pressure to each corner of the suspension so I suppose that would mean that you could (to a degree) compensate for off camber conditions quickly and effectively. They are still not a Mog by any means, but for the expedition travel that Diplostrat is describing I think they're one of the best options. Certainly in the 10 to 15 ton GVM class anyway.
whatcharterboat
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Hi Tree. Yeah, my comments were in reference to
but I'm sure this wasn't in reference to any modern cabovers though.
but I'm sure this wasn't in reference to any modern cabovers though.
whatcharterboat
Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
And this one.
Fred, you once said to me that African travel was very similar to what we experience here in Oz and that it is very different to the US and Europe. It must be the case, as this is a complete reversal of what I know to be true. Especially in sand, heavy corrugations, and long distances in deserts. The longer wheel bases, larger wheel diameters, air suspension, air seating, big cabins, improved vision, pushbutton control everything, etc, etc, etc. wins out everytime. For comfort and making good time.
Fred, you once said to me that African travel was very similar to what we experience here in Oz and that it is very different to the US and Europe. It must be the case, as this is a complete reversal of what I know to be true. Especially in sand, heavy corrugations, and long distances in deserts. The longer wheel bases, larger wheel diameters, air suspension, air seating, big cabins, improved vision, pushbutton control everything, etc, etc, etc. wins out everytime. For comfort and making good time.
charlieaarons
Explorer
I second these thoughts. The coil springs, suspended cab, big tires, air seats, 110kph top speed, and sound insulation of the U500 are much appreciated. It's very much like an Atego as far as creature comforts. The "not as good as a U5000 offroad" argument is by comparison trivial, for overlanding.
Charlie
DiploStrat
Expedition Leader
Rotel
There are very few limitations about how large an overlander can be.
Nice pictures of Mali, taken on a Rotel tour. (Nice pictures of the Rotel as well.) http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/mali
Not going to use this for canyon crawling in North America, but there is a dirty secret to overlanding - most overlanders never stay in a country long enough to find the secondary roads, let alone the trails. Hence my snort that most overlanders are more interested in tracing a line on their blog than they are about seeing anything.
There are very few limitations about how large an overlander can be.
Nice pictures of Mali, taken on a Rotel tour. (Nice pictures of the Rotel as well.) http://www.pbase.com/bmcmorrow/mali
Not going to use this for canyon crawling in North America, but there is a dirty secret to overlanding - most overlanders never stay in a country long enough to find the secondary roads, let alone the trails. Hence my snort that most overlanders are more interested in tracing a line on their blog than they are about seeing anything.
Hi all,in my opinion the cab over ride is related to the type of suspension you are riding on,i drive an Australian made OKA which is a cab over with quite long leaf springs and the ride is very smooth,much better than Canter or Isuzu 300,as to the size,about six years ago I came across an Austrian couple at the start of The Canning sock route,this track runs for 1000 mls from Wiluna to Halls Creek in Western Australia with a wide variaty of terrains they were driving an MAN kat air cooled V8 diesel,they cruised over the sand dunes with ease,when we got to the narrow stony ground the poor guy started to destroy tyres this was due to just about every other 4x4 was a Toyota and all the stones displaced by the narrower 4x4 were loose on the sides for him to collect,this still a common problem over areas frequented by japanese 4x4 which are a fair bit narrower than American 4x4,a French couple travelled behind us with a Bremach Brick which is similar in width to a Land cruiser without a single puncture.
XXXpedition
Explorer
it has absolutely nothing to do with camping....
hmmm - how true!
scotts comment about the size is a good argument, too - but then again, many trails i've been on anything bigger than a common SUV-sized 4x4 wouldn't work.
so i think i stick to my rig ------------(right now - and for a while)
XXXpedition
Explorer
and as far as i know the trailer can be driven seperately from the truck...
egn
Adventurer
Just a few cents from a an owner of a similar rig:
As far as I can see, in this thread are three different vehicles mixed up.
The thread starts with the desert challenger. This vehicle is based on a wide MAN chassis also used for airport fire brigades and missile transporters. It is not cab over, it is cab in front. The engine is behind the drivers cabin. The original military truck has very high capabilities, but this vehicle is limited, because of very high weight. But it will work fine an comfortable on very bad roads and tracks with relatively hard surface. Of course, because of the size, roads have to be wide enough. But as the dessert challenger was build for the desert, this shouldn't be a problem. The build is really top, just like one of the mega yachts. My wife and me had the chance to take a look inside and enjoyed it very much. I have posted more infos and references about this truck here. It is a bit sad, that the vehicle wasn't used very much so far. As far as I know it is several year here in Germany. May be, the Sheik saw that it is not so easy to drive in a sandy dessert with this.
I own a much smaller version of the desert challenger, with smaller track and lighter. The speed you can go offroad and on unpaved tracks is really high without getting to uncomfortable. Please keep in mind that the term KAT I is a definition of the German military and means: Vehicle that is able to follow tanks offroad. This is the highest category for wheeled offroad vehicles of German army. As was mentioned already, this type of vehicles is used as support vehicles an a lot of offroad events world wide. They even ran at the Dakar Rallye until the organizers decided that they don't want vehicles based on military technology in the primary competition. But as support vehicles they are still fine. So my own experience on unpaved roads and offroad in Russia was, that where we could do easily 50+ mph, most other vehicles had to slow down considerably. The large tyres and the coil spring suspension take away most of the bumps. One factor that also plays an important role here is the absolutely stiff frame. There is no twisting and bending, all suspension is done by the wheels, coils and shocks.
To get some impression about what this trucks can do, please have a look at the Dresden-Breslau videos. Or just search there with "MAN KAT". You can find tons of videos. :truck:
Now we come to the MANs used by Unicat. Most of them are based on the civil versions LE220, TGM, TGA. They are certainly robust trucks, but they weren't designed for heavy offroad use. They have a bending/twisting frame and leaf springs. This is fine for occasional offroad use at slow speed, typical found in construction. But if you go mostly on rough unpaved tracks and offroad, then you will earlier or later find the limit of this construction, because something will break. They are really comfortably to drive, and this cause the drivers to go faster than they should, as was mentioned already. If you go slower, no problem.
Yes, all this large vehicles cannot go where some smaller ones can go. But you always have to make compromises. Depending on you personal preferences where you want to go, you select your vehicle. When this issue comes up my personal wording is always, that even with this restrictions, I am not able to visit all the nice places I can go to, in my lifetime. So what?
Regarding tipping, most of this vehicles build with reinforced fiberglass have a low center of gravity. The cabin weights nothing compared to the vehicle frame. The military specification for the MAN KAT talks about a valid tilt of about 17 degrees with the full military load on the platform. The tip over point is much higher with a expedition cabin. The other point is that if you are sitting in such a vehicle and the tilt angle passes some value you will be automatically very careful.
The third vehicle shown at about 30 degree tilt angle seems to be an Unimog. This one has totally different capabilities and has excellent offroad capabilities. Here the center of gravity is even lower because of the heavy base vehicle.
BTW, the travel report from Peter Kapschefsky on the Canning Stock Route in Australia can be found at http://www.kapschefsky.lkw-allrad.de/ .
Most of the people that are driving such a vehicle I am knowing, are no hardcore offroaders. Most of the time they just want to go on rough roads with comfort and high reliablity, go occasionally offroad to reach a nice spot, and finally enjoy these spots with at least some basic comfort. This can be achieved easily with most of this trucks. Some are less or more capable offroad. The preference decides.
And if someone prefers visiting very tight spots, then there is the possibility to take a motorcyle, quad, montain bike with him, or sometimes it is also very nice to do hiking. And when you come back from your exercise, you can take a shower in comfort, prepare a nice meal, and enjoy it and life together with a glass of fine wine during the sunset. :victory:
BTW, some people think we are crazy (or decadent :sombrero: ), because we use dishes made from real porcelain and drinking glass made of real glas :chowtime:. But for us good food and good wine tastes best using real dishes and real glasses. And nothing has been broken since a long time. And even when, it is easy to replace.
For me as native Bavarian, beer :beer: tastes best out of a glass or a mug made of stone. :coffeedrink: Some offroad campers with large trucks I know, even eat from stainless steel plates and drink beer out of plastic glasses - disgusting.
As far as I can see, in this thread are three different vehicles mixed up.
The thread starts with the desert challenger. This vehicle is based on a wide MAN chassis also used for airport fire brigades and missile transporters. It is not cab over, it is cab in front. The engine is behind the drivers cabin. The original military truck has very high capabilities, but this vehicle is limited, because of very high weight. But it will work fine an comfortable on very bad roads and tracks with relatively hard surface. Of course, because of the size, roads have to be wide enough. But as the dessert challenger was build for the desert, this shouldn't be a problem. The build is really top, just like one of the mega yachts. My wife and me had the chance to take a look inside and enjoyed it very much. I have posted more infos and references about this truck here. It is a bit sad, that the vehicle wasn't used very much so far. As far as I know it is several year here in Germany. May be, the Sheik saw that it is not so easy to drive in a sandy dessert with this.
I own a much smaller version of the desert challenger, with smaller track and lighter. The speed you can go offroad and on unpaved tracks is really high without getting to uncomfortable. Please keep in mind that the term KAT I is a definition of the German military and means: Vehicle that is able to follow tanks offroad. This is the highest category for wheeled offroad vehicles of German army. As was mentioned already, this type of vehicles is used as support vehicles an a lot of offroad events world wide. They even ran at the Dakar Rallye until the organizers decided that they don't want vehicles based on military technology in the primary competition. But as support vehicles they are still fine. So my own experience on unpaved roads and offroad in Russia was, that where we could do easily 50+ mph, most other vehicles had to slow down considerably. The large tyres and the coil spring suspension take away most of the bumps. One factor that also plays an important role here is the absolutely stiff frame. There is no twisting and bending, all suspension is done by the wheels, coils and shocks.
To get some impression about what this trucks can do, please have a look at the Dresden-Breslau videos. Or just search there with "MAN KAT". You can find tons of videos. :truck:
Now we come to the MANs used by Unicat. Most of them are based on the civil versions LE220, TGM, TGA. They are certainly robust trucks, but they weren't designed for heavy offroad use. They have a bending/twisting frame and leaf springs. This is fine for occasional offroad use at slow speed, typical found in construction. But if you go mostly on rough unpaved tracks and offroad, then you will earlier or later find the limit of this construction, because something will break. They are really comfortably to drive, and this cause the drivers to go faster than they should, as was mentioned already. If you go slower, no problem.
Yes, all this large vehicles cannot go where some smaller ones can go. But you always have to make compromises. Depending on you personal preferences where you want to go, you select your vehicle. When this issue comes up my personal wording is always, that even with this restrictions, I am not able to visit all the nice places I can go to, in my lifetime. So what?
Regarding tipping, most of this vehicles build with reinforced fiberglass have a low center of gravity. The cabin weights nothing compared to the vehicle frame. The military specification for the MAN KAT talks about a valid tilt of about 17 degrees with the full military load on the platform. The tip over point is much higher with a expedition cabin. The other point is that if you are sitting in such a vehicle and the tilt angle passes some value you will be automatically very careful.
The third vehicle shown at about 30 degree tilt angle seems to be an Unimog. This one has totally different capabilities and has excellent offroad capabilities. Here the center of gravity is even lower because of the heavy base vehicle.
BTW, the travel report from Peter Kapschefsky on the Canning Stock Route in Australia can be found at http://www.kapschefsky.lkw-allrad.de/ .
Most of the people that are driving such a vehicle I am knowing, are no hardcore offroaders. Most of the time they just want to go on rough roads with comfort and high reliablity, go occasionally offroad to reach a nice spot, and finally enjoy these spots with at least some basic comfort. This can be achieved easily with most of this trucks. Some are less or more capable offroad. The preference decides.
And if someone prefers visiting very tight spots, then there is the possibility to take a motorcyle, quad, montain bike with him, or sometimes it is also very nice to do hiking. And when you come back from your exercise, you can take a shower in comfort, prepare a nice meal, and enjoy it and life together with a glass of fine wine during the sunset. :victory:
BTW, some people think we are crazy (or decadent :sombrero: ), because we use dishes made from real porcelain and drinking glass made of real glas :chowtime:. But for us good food and good wine tastes best using real dishes and real glasses. And nothing has been broken since a long time. And even when, it is easy to replace.
For me as native Bavarian, beer :beer: tastes best out of a glass or a mug made of stone. :coffeedrink: Some offroad campers with large trucks I know, even eat from stainless steel plates and drink beer out of plastic glasses - disgusting.
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