Tundra frame compared to the Land Cruiser 200 and Ford F-150?

Oshkosh-P

Observer
Hello,

since the frame of the 2007+ Tundra is at least similiar to that of the LC 200, ist it the same size frame rails? Or did it got stronger with years due to regulations/weight increase? Also how does it measure up to the Ford F-150?

What i know: The LC 200 has a solide 185x90x3.2mm profile, while the Ford git 225x70x2.5, so bigger but thinner.

Kind regards

Marcus
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Hello,

since the frame of the 2007+ Tundra is at least similiar to that of the LC 200, ist it the same size frame rails? Or did it got stronger with years due to regulations/weight increase? Also how does it measure up to the Ford F-150?

What i know: The LC 200 has a solide 185x90x3.2mm profile, while the Ford git 225x70x2.5, so bigger but thinner.

Kind regards

Marcus
I don’t think the Tundra frame is anything like the 200. Tundra is a c channel back half. Unless you are saying the brand new Tundra and new LC250- I suspect they are very similar.
 

Oshkosh-P

Observer
Really? I thought all Trucks of this size range where fully buxed for like 20 years? Was this the same for the Titan? Because all the 3 big US companys where fully boxed so much longer?
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Really? I thought all Trucks of this size range where fully buxed for like 20 years? Was this the same for the Titan? Because all the 3 big US companys where fully boxed so much longer?
Toyota used fully boxed frames on their U.S. truck until 1995, which is when we got the Tacoma, which diverged from the global Hilux. Some parts are shared and the frames are similar in front. But the two are distinct designs.

Tundra forked from the T100 that was a scaled up Hilux/Pickup. The Tacoma has always been open C from the cab back. The reasons given generally boil down to a more "compliant" ride, meaning softer for Americans who use their trucks without much cargo.

The 95-04 Taco frame can do with some help if you ask it to carry weight a lot. These are the reinforcement plates I put on the one I owned for a while. The 2005+ frame is double wall 'C' through the middle so there's less need to do this. It's still not a particularly rigid frame but it's strong enough.

The camper I have on mine was about 10 years old when I got and put it on the 1991 for 15 years, 1 year on the reinforced 2001 and now 7 years on the 2008. The fatigue and fracturing in the fiberglass has noticeably increased in the past 7.

Now it's 33 years old and the first 26 years surely accumulated plenty of wear-and-tear so the extra flex and vibration in my current 2008 can't be completely blamed. But when I put the rear on jackstands to work on the rear springs (so stands right in front of the forward fixed leaf spring hanger) I have to put a 3rd tall stand under the trailer hitch to keep the tail from sagging excessively. You can *hear* the fiberglass straining if I don't.

It should be mentioned that domestic trucks weren't always boxed. I know the square body GMs had C channel frames. And medium and heavy duty trucks have C channels. It's not a simple yes-or-no as far as strength. I do think boxed frames are generally are more rigid, though.

IMG_0340_mid.jpg
 
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bkg

Explorer
Really? I thought all Trucks of this size range where fully buxed for like 20 years? Was this the same for the Titan? Because all the 3 big US companys where fully boxed so much longer?
Tundra - 2000-2021 - only boxed (bascially) from firewall forward. Then modified c-channel to back of cab. then open c-channel.

wet noodles.
 

85_Ranger4x4

Well-known member
IMO the more flexible frame for a more compliant ride is kind of a BS story...

If you do the work... a boxed frame can ride beautifully. My '16 F-150 rides like a friggin dream.

Coming from my '02 F-150 with a mostly c channel frame my '16's high speed ride and handling is unnaturally good loaded or otherwise.

Also IMO if your frame is designed to be flexible and it flexes... big deal. Rigidity doesn't really equate to strength.

Yes that is true, the longer wheelbase F-150 could be thicker.

More payload packages than wheelbase.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
IMO the more flexible frame for a more compliant ride is kind of a BS story...

If you do the work... a boxed frame can ride beautifully. My '16 F-150 rides like a friggin dream.

Coming from my '02 F-150 with a mostly c channel frame my '16's high speed ride and handling is unnaturally good loaded or otherwise.
I really don't know why Toyota insists on it. When asked Mike Swears, who was at the time the chief engineer on Tacoma and Tundra, is the source for what I said. But even he is talking around it because he mentioned the 4Runner being more refined and it's got a fully boxed frame. So to your point (on which I agree completely), I think the modern design philosophy is to make the chassis as rigid as possible and tune the ride by suspension. People who are familiar with Hilux immediately notice it "rides like a truck." I wish my Tacoma did more.


Screen Shot 2023-12-01 at 6.21.15 AM.png
 

plainjaneFJC

Deplorable
Super duty frames weren’t boxed until 2017 I think…. I remember a late 90s super duty I drove and the bed squeaked like a ******** at every point it had stuff attached, those things were flimsy. Boxed isn’t always better though. Plenty of pics online of broken frontier/navarro frames from having too much of a load, same for the Colorado, even seen it on a few raptors
 

Oshkosh-P

Observer
Dodge hat boxed frames in theier 2/3500's since around 2004 i think, Chevy since 2011 and Ford since 2017.

I think a rigid frame is better on the road and equally good offroad if the suspension helps out. From the perspective of longevity a stiff frame will of course live longer compared to a frame that has to flex all the time.

However a stiff frame has to be heavier and generally larger in my opinion, or have much stronger steele, otherwise there is the risk of cracking.

All Land Cruiser since the late 80's where boxed and those have been mistreatet for decades now and still work. Same for the G-wagon, or the much heavier and bigger MAN KAT. The Humvee is fully boxed too.

So boxed frames can work very well offroad, but not if they are just used as a gimmick for better ride quality or even worse, the manufactorer wants to save weight with a boxed frame by usinf much much thinner sheets.
 

tacollie

Glamper
2nd gen Tundra has a very flexy frame. Honestly I'm not totally convinced a rigid frame is stronger. Medium duty and up trucks tend to have flexy open c channel frames. RAM 4500 and F450 are c channel. A rigid frame is going to be better for anything mounted to the truck bed. That was a big reason we switched from a Tundra to a F250 to carry our camper.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Rigidity and strength are two different characteristics. There's no reason a rigid frame will necessarily last longer. You have to know the stress-strain of the material and design the geometry (tolerable flex) to be compatible. Leaf springs can last just as long as the frame, aircraft wings don't necessarily fail before the fuselage. It depends on how well the designer did and how the vehicle is used. We tend to fatigue our leaf springs sooner but we also flex them more and deeper than the majority of owners. Plenty of trucks are crushed with the springs they came with from the factory when they're not used quite as harshly.

It's part of the reason I assume Toyota had to leave the front section boxed. They use a high strength steel in the front which is more brittle, thus cannot tolerate as much deflection. The 1st gen Tacoma frame was too flexible. The problem I had was the camper shell would hit the cab roof. I never developed a permanent deformation but some people would. The 2nd gen flex is just slightly lower (still significant IMO) but also less failure-prone with a notable exception. The first 2 or so years, 2005, 2006, early 2007, the motor mount could fracture and collapse into the frame and required a production change to add gussets. This is a typical indication of weld heat issues and material brittleness in higher strength steels and was in the boxed section, not the open section.
 
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skrypj

Well-known member
I really don't know why Toyota insists on it. When asked Mike Swears, who was at the time the chief engineer on Tacoma and Tundra, is the source for what I said. But even he is talking around it because he mentioned the 4Runner being more refined and it's got a fully boxed frame. So to your point (on which I agree completely), I think the modern design philosophy is to make the chassis as rigid as possible and tune the ride by suspension. People who are familiar with Hilux immediately notice it "rides like a truck." I wish my Tacoma did more.


View attachment 808519

I thought the reason the 4Runner and 200 series are fully boxed while the Tacoma and Tundra were not had to do with the 5 link suspension vs leafs. Sweers specifically stated that was why the 3rd gen frame went fully boxed.

Additionally, the 4runner and LC had a continuous body that is not going to want to cope with as much flex as a truck with a totally separated bed.

My understanding is that the c-channel frame helps dampen the jitters and wiggles that you get from a leaf sprung rear axle. This is something that was really apparent on my 2014 F150 but was mostly cured with a set of Bilstein shocks.
 

skrypj

Well-known member
2nd gen Tundra has a very flexy frame. Honestly I'm not totally convinced a rigid frame is stronger. Medium duty and up trucks tend to have flexy open c channel frames. RAM 4500 and F450 are c channel. A rigid frame is going to be better for anything mounted to the truck bed. That was a big reason we switched from a Tundra to a F250 to carry our camper.

I think a lot of the reason the medium duty trucks have c channel is due to the ability to upfit them better. It allow you much easier access to bolt things on.
 

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