Van camping in -40

45Kevin

Adventurer
We have had our van out in double digit minus weather, and if our bedding doesn't keep us warm we will use our remote start the van and let the heater run for 10 minutes.
You do have to be careful not to fall back asleep.
I guess if I looked it up, my remote start might shut off in a certain time period anyway.

Either way, the glass would be dripping (well, frosty) wet behind our ill fitting pieces of window insulation.
 

TeleSteve

Adventurer
I have used our van with water system full for several days at -20-30F. We have a no rear window cargo van that is moderately insulted and a Webasto Airtop 2000ST B(gasoline). We cover the three front windows with reflectix and thin 1/4" foam window covers, condensation typically freezes on the inside below around 15F even with windows cracked and vent partially open. The Webasto has no problem keeping the all interior plumbed water system from freezing and the inside van temps warm enough to hang out in normal clothing and sleep in 20 degree sleeping bags usually not fully zipped. You do feel some drafty areas around the side and front doors and the floor never feels warm except right in front of the heater outlet. If I were to do it again I would use more insulation on the floor. I would probably add some type of electric radiant floor heat, for when power is available. We have a 255AH AGM house battery mounted under the van uninsulated and have not had an issue keeping the heater and basic lights and electronics going for up to three days with out driving and/or plugging in to charge (no solar yet). If power is available we run an electric ceramic heater instead.
My plumbing is setup so that I can quickly and easily drain the water system and or tank if needed due to a heating failure or if we have to leave the van for prolonged periods. We carry but rarely use a cassette toilet with antifreeze so that is not a freezing concern. Hot water comes from a stacked plate heat exchanger off the engine cooling circuit. If necessary the main water tank is plumbed to recirculate hot water in to the tank to allow the tank to sit longer without heat when needed, the tank would be isolated and the rest of the plumbing drained in this case. I planned and prewired for a 12v tank heating mat, but haven't acquired one yet.
For prolonged boon docking trips around -40F I would probably look into a hydronic type heater for use as block heater and would consider carrying a small basic catalytic heater just as a last resort back up.
 

Photomike

White Turtle Adventures & Photography
I have used our van with water system full for several days at -20-30F. We have a no rear window cargo van that is moderately insulted and a Webasto Airtop 2000ST B(gasoline). We cover the three front windows with reflectix and thin 1/4" foam window covers, condensation typically freezes on the inside below around 15F even with windows cracked and vent partially open. The Webasto has no problem keeping the all interior plumbed water system from freezing and the inside van temps warm enough to hang out in normal clothing and sleep in 20 degree sleeping bags usually not fully zipped. You do feel some drafty areas around the side and front doors and the floor never feels warm except right in front of the heater outlet. If I were to do it again I would use more insulation on the floor. I would probably add some type of electric radiant floor heat, for when power is available. We have a 255AH AGM house battery mounted under the van uninsulated and have not had an issue keeping the heater and basic lights and electronics going for up to three days with out driving and/or plugging in to charge (no solar yet). If power is available we run an electric ceramic heater instead.
My plumbing is setup so that I can quickly and easily drain the water system and or tank if needed due to a heating failure or if we have to leave the van for prolonged periods. We carry but rarely use a cassette toilet with antifreeze so that is not a freezing concern. Hot water comes from a stacked plate heat exchanger off the engine cooling circuit. If necessary the main water tank is plumbed to recirculate hot water in to the tank to allow the tank to sit longer without heat when needed, the tank would be isolated and the rest of the plumbing drained in this case. I planned and prewired for a 12v tank heating mat, but haven't acquired one yet.
For prolonged boon docking trips around -40F I would probably look into a hydronic type heater for use as block heater and would consider carrying a small basic catalytic heater just as a last resort back up.

Looked at your build and VERY impressive. Well thought out!! Thanks for the info.
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
Espar b4 is a good choice. Propane may not work at that temp. Plumbing in walls or floor even remotely close to the outside will freeze solid. Batteries outside will have 20-40% capacity reduction. They may freeze if discharged below 50%. Agms will be more.freeze resistant.

You really need to have everything inside the heated space.

No, or double glazed windows are a must. Good coverings may work okay. Ability to isolate the glass filled cab as well. The floor must be well insulated. Otherwise stuff in cabinets, or water tanks on the floor will freeze.

The euro foam core box type overland campers are a good place to look for design ideas.
 

canuck 1

nautical disaster
Dickson Marine has a few options for heaters that will not be battery killers, Spray foam in Calgary is approx 500 for a van, do not use styro panels except for on the floor(spray under is still better). Put a rear heater in either factory or from PAuto. Do not put a plastic roof vent in either....tough hole to plug at -40, carry an exhaust hose for the times the rig has to run all nite

My .02
 

chris_the_wrench

Fixer & Builder of Things
I've crawled around under those Winnebago Travatos. they are fun, but lots of exposed plumbing and tanks. They had the heat tape and pads which was great, but my parking lot calculations estimate that vehicle is designed for 15-20 degrees (above zero). In addition those tank heaters take a lot of electrical juice too.

I'm not an engineer just a guy who has taken his truck camper into -35F and then had to repair frozen plumbing I thought was insulated...

We are looking to make the move to a Transit or similar, for use in similar cold temps(inland BC and Yukon). Im curious about insulating the floor from underneath in order to maintain as much internal head height as possible(I'm 6'3" and hate hunching over).


-Chris


What about the Winnebago Revel? (Other than not having a pile of spare money...)

They seem to have built at least some ability to do cold-weather camping in it. It has a diesel-powered hydronic heater in it, dual-pane windows, insulated and heated tanks and probably more.

Dang - I just talked myself into buying one. First I've got to convince my wife to sell the house...
 
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Photomike

White Turtle Adventures & Photography
Just saw this https://www.kijiji.ca/v-cars-trucks/calgary/2016-ram-promaster-3500-high-roof-backup-camera-bluetooth/1302882459?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

May be a good start, the insulation is done. I think I would take out the divider but it could also be cool to just cut a door in and use to insulate the back from the front. I think I want windows in the rear doors but not sure.

Addition - started another thread about choosing between a Promaster and Transit and looks like this one will stay for sale!
 
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luthj

Engineer In Residence
I would also consider a gas or diesel fired coolant heater for engine preheat. Espar/webasto diesel heaters can be run from an.external tank filled with kerosene. This eliminates the fuel gelling issues.
 

Photomike

White Turtle Adventures & Photography
I have never had an issue with fuel gelling, all my vehicles are gas and in the real cold I run the block heater in the mornings then I don't worry about it after that. So far (32 years of driving in the cold) not a problem.

The Winnabago is a lot more than I want to spend and really do not want 4x4. I did look at dealers and the only one listed is 2500 kms from me :Wow1:
 

Ozarker

Pontoon Admiral
Can't really give advice on heaters, but I'm going to have propane and wood.

As to insulation; I don't see how buying any manufactured van off the show room floor or used from average camper type would give you a good start for an extreme weather rig. Not unless you gutted it and started over.

So, what's the budget?

Blown in insulation will be the best way to go, IMO, but I didn't spring for that due to cost and I'd still end up having to modify windows and doors.

I used Harbor Freight floor mats, they fit together like a puzzle and when you open the package they stink....but let them air out for a week and they lose the odor. They are water proof, they don't soak up at all as I did a submerged test for 5 days, I couldn't get any water out of them.

Liberally use 3M90 to glue these mats to the interior surfaces to the metal. Then cover with blue board insulation, then reflex and tape it up using the aluminum tape. I then used corrugated plastic sheets 10mm thick. These sheets do have some R value but they provide an air space over the reflex and under the wall material, Not tested yet but I suspect this will help any condensation issue with the walls. BTW, I used bat insulation in pieces in all the interior framing to cut down on noise and air flow.

The floor got a paint job for future rust, then blue board, then mats, then reflex, then plywood then flooring, mine got carpet.

The ceiling got two layers of reflex without plywood, plastic sheets will go over the reflex then ceiling material.

All ceiling and wall fixtures have tape on the wiring penetration and fixtures are screwed in over the ceiling material, so the only conduction from the van body is by way of the small screws in the fixture.

I'm not using any wood battens or stringers inside, if I did use them they would go over the reflex, not on the metal body.

The front of any vehicle is an issue to insulated, my solution is a partition behind the front seats, if I were to have swivel seats it would be from the floor to ceiling in front of the dash.

Again, good ole Harbor Freight moving blankets, I'm using two layered, sandwiched in reflex then I have a PVC coated canvas used for Army tents, you don't sew this stuff you glue it. I'll allow for lapping this against the ceiling, floor and walls held by velcro. This partition only goes for extreme heat or cold and rolls up to be stored in a roll on the ceiling passenger side wall, out of the way.

Windows get custom covers that cover the trim a couple inches onto the walls or doors. My layers will be two layers of reflex, then the mat material, then the plastic sheet, all glued, the walls material, fake leather stuff in my case.

Next is to address door jams, another weather stripping besides the rubber gasket.

I'm considering another partition type panel to cover my double doors over lapping the threshold/floor, jams and header, they can open with the door if I need to bail out.

If I install a vent fan a small cover will be made for that as well, I may not since I'm planning on a marine side vent that can close which vents my fridge and kitchen appliances, it will have forced air from a computer fan.

I'll say my cold weather experience was from being stationed at Ft. Drum, we'd go out for a week in Jan/Feb and dig in snow caves, it got to 52 below with the wind chill so, there ya go, just don't kiss your door handles. :)
 

mrsa111

Observer
I like the wood stove as backup idea. I'm building my van with an espar d2 and decent insulation but not going crazy, i might go with a wood stove too, i wont see -40, but -25 a couple nights is likely. Anyone have a link to some real compact wood stoves?

for the battery issue, I was looking at these small electric heating pads to install under my battery. im using a 100ah Lithium house battery so keeping it above freezing is extra important. I'm storing it inside, and plan on surrounding it with some 1/4" neoprene isulation foam too.
A friend told me you can get temperature activated switches, so when it got close to freezing near the battery the heating pad would kick in. could maybe use that idea for water jugs/plumbing, etc.. I'm just having trouble finding a switch that I think would work.
 

Photomike

White Turtle Adventures & Photography
Ozarker I like your ideas and a lot is what I was thinking. I am leaning more towards spray in foam at this time but that is still a 50/50 split in my mind. The premade unit was a way to get on the road then to modify as I had time, I may have to stay in a motel when REALLY cold but I would at least be comfortable during the day with a toilet / fridge and stove. Being forced to stay close to home is getting to me, I want to get out shooting!!!

Insulating the front from the back is a challenge but with the class C I did a moving blanket and it REALLY helps! I saw one unit that they left the divider in and I love the look (they covered it and it looks professional) BUT I want / need a third seat for when my wife and son come with so that is out at this time.

With my son sitting in the third chair that will require a window in the door to be legal, and safe, so I will only have that window and the rear door widows to insulate.

mrsa111 why go Lithium if you are going to have to heat it? The power loss in heating is the worst thing as you add more batteries for the heat then you need to heat them and so on. A AGM can go inside and if properly charged will not freeze.

Look at boating supply places for stoves they have some REALLY nice ones.
 

mrsa111

Observer
mrsa111 why go Lithium if you are going to have to heat it? The power loss in heating is the worst thing as you add more batteries for the heat then you need to heat them and so on. A AGM can go inside and if properly charged will not freeze.

Look at boating supply places for stoves they have some REALLY nice ones.

It was more a space/weight thing, I'm trying to REALLY maximize the space I've got, it's not the biggest van and I have a lot of gear I'll be carrying. The size/weight is pretty damn impressive when you compare it to a battery bank you'd have with AGMs. I figured it's 1/3 the weight and size of an equivalent agm battery bank. Maybe 1/4 of the weight.

Yes it might be a pain in the winter, but I figured the majority of nights will be around 10-30, it rarely gets to 0 or below. It'll be surrounded by other electrical components, have insulation surrounding it, heating pad, etc.. I'm thinking the only time the battery will get below freezing will be when I'm not using the van. I may keep small normal battery around in the winter incase I need to run the heating pad in an emergency.
 

45Kevin

Adventurer
I'm in southern Alberta as well, and we only get a couple of weeks a year of minus minus temps, so I wouldn't build a van around the odd time you are out in the -30 nights and days.

Get a remote start and a good down comforter or -30 sleeping bags and when you wake up to a VERY cold van, reach out for the remote start and let her run for ten minutes with the heater on before getting out from under the blankets. You can idle a gas engine for many many hours before you burn enough gas to justify the expense of an Espar or Webasto.

We were in the Canmore area last weekend and it got down to single digit minus temps and it took a couple of minutes in the morning to warm up the interior.
 

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