van drifting

[shawn_nj]

Not doubting bad design, but just for reference my van had HORRIBLE bump steer....even brand new when I drove it home from Quigley's plant this past April.

Swapping the shocks out really was a night and day difference in the highway manors/handling of the van. So much so that I wrote Quigley and said they should be including the Bilsteins as a mandatory part of the conversion. The stock shocks constantly had the van all over the road when you hit rough patches. There were actually highways (in Staten Island) that I would not drive the van on it was so bad. That has not happened to me once since upgrading the shocks. I do not claim to know anything other then my first hand experience, but its just something to consider. I'd like to hear what other quigley owners think.

 

[matt s]

and even though everything is very tight under there, I still get drifting and poor bump steering characteristics. I intend to completely rip out the front end before long and replace it with a more modern (and well engineered) system.

Best of luck.

This is where you nailed it on the head (poor design/geometry) but we may disagree about how to handle it. While re-engineering and fabrication might be the ultimate fix, it really is beyond most people and I would guess can also be a pandoras box of unforeseen consequences. I do think that before any stabilizers etc you must be sure that everything is tight under there. Otherwise it is the "band aid" you speak of and could mask dangerous problems.

In my case I went through the entire front end including new suspension and it is tight. I have a little bump steer and no stabilizers don't stop it, but they do make it manageable (they slow it down some). Where I found them to truly help was with wandering. No longer do the ruts in the highway (we have bad ones) or some uneven ground have the ability to input so much energy into the system. If I point it in a direction it now stays there.

 

[dsw4x4]

Bump steer is a direct result of bad geometry or sloppy components. To achieve no bump steer on a 5 link set up the track bar needs to be tight and the height difference between the frame and the axle mounting points need to be at the exact same angle as the tie rod that goes from the steering box to the axle. This way all motion is in unisen. If those two angle are off you will get bumpsteer. Quigley moved their track bar from the rear of the axle to the front of the axle some where around 2003ish, I am guessing this was an effort to make that angle a little better. Anything lose in the front end can lead to drifting or swaying I am sure shocks will help tremendously. As will bad tires or a low load range tire. Tightening those track bar bushings up will help bump steer and death wobble. Control arm bushings should not affect wander or bump steer unless they are so shot they puke out their guts. Track bars and control arms can be tightened up using johnny joints. In my opinion much better than a poly bushing but a little more complicated to do. My 2000 quigley has stock shocks and bushings and I noticed that the lower driver four link bolt on the axle is so wallowed out it has over a half inch of front to back slop in it. This means the axle can twist a half inch around on that side when it wants. I hear it click when i listen closely but it has no ill affects on handling or wander. We used to do this all the time in our jeeps and broncos. Broncos call it a wristed pin set up. With jeeps we just called a three link and we would leave off the fourth link, usually the lower link opposite from the diff side. This would increase articulation with no real world affects on ride or handling. I put new cheese ball shocks from auto zone to get me buy for a while last year. I noticed very little difference driving home with two broken front shocks (snapped off the stems) than when i put the new 10.99 shocks on from autozone. When I build my suspension system quality shocks are top priority. These vans are so top heavy and tall shocks will make a huge difference.
Derek

 

[OBORG]

let see Running Radflo Shock=s valve right ,longer track bar, the right coil springs for a solid axle ,new longer control arms,and a new after market front sway bar. Basically we fixed the poor geometry that Quigley's vans have and we moved front axle forward so i could fit 35" tires.

What did you get done to it?

Swapping out the stock shocks to Bilsteins pretty much eliminated my bump steer, but there is definetly still room for improvment.

 

[shawn_nj]

let see Running Radflo Shock=s valve right ,longer track bar, the right coil springs for a solid axle ,new longer control arms,and a new after market front sway bar. Basically we fixed the poor geometry that Quigley's vans have and we moved front axle forward so i could fit 35" tires.

Who did your work?
Are your shocks an "off the shelf part #" or were they custom valved? Who did your coil springs, or where did you buy them? Do you think swapping out the front sway bar would help a otherwise stock quigley. After putting 10,000 miles in the van I have no real complains about the handling since the shock upgrade. Not looking to do anything major, but if a few boltons would make it drive nicer I'm very interested. I drove by another quigley last week that looked like it had an AM horizontal shock on the bottom of the front axle. Is that the front sway bar? Sorry for all my newbie questions.

 

[dsw4x4]

Shawn,
Radflo custom builds their shocks for the application they are custom valved. I am currently working with them to develop shocks for the quigleys along with a suspension system I will be selling for these vans. Swapping out the sway bar will only help if you go with a thicker diameter bar that will fight body roll in the corners. This will help handling however the van will not flex as good fourwheeling and ride stiffer side to side off road (slinging you left to right). The horizontal shock you saw is a steering stabilizer that smoothes out your steering so if you ********** a curb it will not rip the wheel out of your hand, it also smoothes out the small bumps too.
I can sell you a stiffer spring this will make the van ride firmer and handle better with less body roll.
Like Oborg said quigley uses the stock springs for the two wheel drive van. That works but is not optimal the same goes for the shocks. They try to reuse every part possible so that they do not have to purchase new parts. Why would they foot the bill for bilstien shocks when they can reuse the stock ford ones for free. This why the rear axle shock mounts have crappy looking extensions welded on to them, it is so they can reuse a ford shock.
My new suspension system will remove those rear shock mounts and have new ones welded on so that you can use a full length shock and regain the travel the quigley robs you of. It will also have the option of new front links using johnny joints instead of poly bushings and longer to allow larger tires. Options will include
1.75" lift
4" lift
longer control arms
remote reservoir shocks
adjustable track bar
custom sway bar w/ disconnects
rear shackle flip kit

 

[OBORG]

New up grade

They have this up grade kit almost ready to roll out. We have 2.5" johnny joints, 2" lower arms 1 1/2" upper arms these are solid with a life time warranty. They have the valving dialed in. and a new track bar that's longer and adjustable. You can dial this kit right in. They had to make the lower arms long and the upper arms long also.
'

Shawn,
Radflo custom builds their shocks for the application they are custom valved. I am currently working with them to develop shocks for the quigleys along with a suspension system I will be selling for these vans. Swapping out the sway bar will only help if you go with a thicker diameter bar that will fight body roll in the corners. This will help handling however the van will not flex as good fourwheeling and ride stiffer side to side off road (slinging you left to right). The horizontal shock you saw is a steering stabilizer that smoothes out your steering so if you ********** a curb it will not rip the wheel out of your hand, it also smoothes out the small bumps too.
I can sell you a stiffer spring this will make the van ride firmer and handle better with less body roll.
Like Oborg said quigley uses the stock springs for the two wheel drive van. That works but is not optimal the same goes for the shocks. They try to reuse every part possible so that they do not have to purchase new parts. Why would they foot the bill for bilstien shocks when they can reuse the stock ford ones for free. This why the rear axle shock mounts have crappy looking extensions welded on to them, it is so they can reuse a ford shock.
My new suspension system will remove those rear shock mounts and have new ones welded on so that you can use a full length shock and regain the travel the quigley robs you of. It will also have the option of new front links using johnny joints instead of poly bushings and longer to allow larger tires. Options will include
1.75" lift
4" lift
longer control arms
remote reservoir shocks
adjustable track bar
custom sway bar w/ disconnects
rear shackle flip kit

 

[shawn_nj]

Wow thanks guys for all the info! Sounds like when these kits get dialed in and available I will probably be spending some money...LOL. Radflo themselves are working on a Quigley kit too?

Do either of you have a recommendation for a steering stabilizer? Doesnt bother me, but my GF doesnt like how the wheel jerks when you hit uneven pavement. I am not talking bump steer where the van is all over the place, just harsh steering wheel movement. Does Bilstein or Radflo make a steering stabilizer for the ESeries that works on quigleys?

 

[OBORG]

caster

Your caster is off its is what it sounds like to me. And no radflo is not doing work on a Quigleys kit. hope this will help u understand.

THE EFFECTS OF CASTER

Caster is the angle to which the steering pivot axis is tilted forward or rearward from vertical, as viewed from the side. If the pivot axis is tilted backward (that is, the top pivot is positioned farther rearward than the bottom pivot), then the caster is positive; if it's tilted forward, then the caster is negative.

Positive caster tends to straighten the wheel when the vehicle is traveling forward, and thus is used to enhance straight-line stability. The mechanism that causes this tendency is clearly illustrated by the castering front wheels of a shopping cart (above). The steering axis of a shopping cart wheel is set forward of where the wheel contacts the ground. As the cart is pushed forward, the steering axis pulls the wheel along, and since the wheel drags along the ground, it falls directly in line behind the steering axis. The force that causes the wheel to follow the steering axis is proportional to the distance between the steering axis and the wheel-to-ground contact patch-the greater the distance, the greater the force. This distance is referred to as "trail."

Due to many design considerations, it is desirable to have the steering axis of a car's wheel right at the wheel hub. If the steering axis were to be set vertical with this layout, the axis would be coincident with the tire contact patch. The trail would be zero, and no castering would be generated. The wheel would be essentially free to spin about the patch (actually, the tire itself generates a bit of a castering effect due to a phenomenon known as "pneumatic trail," but this effect is much smaller than that created by mechanical castering, so we'll ignore it here). Fortunately, it is possible to create castering by tilting the steering axis in the positive direction. With such an arrangement, the steering axis intersects the ground at a point in front of the tire contact patch, and thus the same effect as seen in the shopping cart casters is achieved.

The tilted steering axis has another important effect on suspension geometry. Since the wheel rotates about a tilted axis, the wheel gains camber as it is turned. This effect is best visualized by imagining the unrealistically extreme case where the steering axis would be horizontal-as the steering wheel is turned, the road wheel would simply change camber rather than direction. This effect causes the outside wheel in a turn to gain negative camber, while the inside wheel gains positive camber. These camber changes are generally favorable for cornering, although it is possible to overdo it.

Most cars are not particularly sensitive to caster settings. Nevertheless, it is important to ensure that the caster is the same on both sides of the car to avoid the tendency to pull to one side. While greater caster angles serve to improve straight-line stability, they also cause an increase in steering effort. Three to five degrees of positive caster is the typical range of settings, with lower angles being used on heavier vehicles to keep the steering effort reasonable.

Wow thanks guys for all the info! Sounds like when these kits get dialed in and available I will probably be spending some money...LOL. Radflo themselves are working on a Quigley kit too?

Do either of you have a recommendation for a steering stabilizer? Doesnt bother me, but my GF doesnt like how the wheel jerks when you hit uneven pavement. I am not talking bump steer where the van is all over the place, just harsh steering wheel movement. Does Bilstein or Radflo make a steering stabilizer for the ESeries that works on quigleys?

 

[OBORG]

with after market lift

Here is my van with the updated coil spring long arm kit

 

[ujoint]

OBORG--- Excellent point on the castor. I sometimes say that too much castor is like walking around on your toes.

 

[dsw4x4]

Oborg,
What size tire are you running?
Not that it can be changed easy but another thing that can make a big difference in handling is the Ackerman Angle most people do not give this much thought because it is set in the casting from the factory but when you run high steer arms it will change this angle making one tire turn sharper than the other and the more you turn the worse it gets.
Derek

 

[OBORG]

tire size

35" tires