What are lockers??

michaelgroves

Explorer
I fixed Wikipedia's introduction to locking differentials, since it was just plain wrong:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential

Understanding what a differential actually does (and of course a locking differential), helps you learn much faster what off-road driving lines are more likely to be successful. You can predict and understand what the vehicle does under what conditions, rather than solely by experience.

Most people imagine that an open diff allows all the torque to be supplied to the wheel with no traction (which then spins uselessly), and that a locked diff supplies equal torque to both wheels (giving you a better chance of getting out of the mire).

But in fact, it is precisely the other way around!

An open diff always puts equal torque on each half-shaft. A locked diff allows them to have unequal torques.

Here's the explanation: Torque is the twisting force on the halfshaft. (Think of it as the force that "tries" to break the shaft by twisting it). It is a product of the engine trying to turn the shaft, and the ground under that wheel resisting (this ground resistance is also called "traction"). Torque has nothing to do with how fast the wheel turns - you can spin a wheel really fast, and have nearly zero torque on that shaft, or you can have it entirely motionless, but have it under tremendous torque.

So... if you lift one wheel up into the air, the ground stops resisting, and torque drops to (approximately) zero, even though the wheel might be spinning. Conversely, if your truck is chained to a tree stump, and you're pulling at it hard, you may have a huge torque on both shafts, even though neither wheel is actually turning. (That's easier to imagine if the truck has automatic transmission).

With an open differential, if you lift a wheel into the air, so that its torque drops to zero, the open differential drops the torque on the other wheel to zero also. The wheel in the air spins because the differential is supplying enough power to overcome the (non-existent) traction. The opposite wheel - the one the ground - stops rotating, because the differential supplies too little torque to overcome the good traction.

The only time your vehicle ever moves is when there is sufficient total torque to move it. A lot of torque is needed to shift a heavy truck up a steep hill, much less torque is required to move a light truck along flat ground. Assuming your engine and transmission can supply whatever is needed, the limiting factor is how much traction the ground can provide. If the ground is slippery (or uneven, so that weight is taken off one of the driving wheels), then there may be insufficient resistance (traction) that your truck's engine can work against in order to generate the necessary torque.

By way of example - imagine you have a 2WD automatic (for simplicity) truck, with an open diff, going up a hill that requires a total of, say, 2000Nm of torque at the wheels to move it. Let's also say that your truck's transmission can generate way more than that, so traction is the only issue.

Now, to start with, let's look at the situation where you are on moderately solid ground, dirt capable of supporting, say 1300Nm of torque. If any wheel is pushed harder than that, it will start to slip on the dirt.

As you gradually press the accelerator, the torque will go up at both wheels equally, until it reaches 1000Nm at each half-shaft. At that point, the wheels will both start to turn, and the truck will move. No spin takes place, because neither wheel exceeds the 1300Nm limit of the ground.

Now imagine one wheel is on an muddy patch, which can only support 800Nm of traction. As you hit the pedal, the torque rises equally on both axles, until they each reach 800Nm. At that point, the muddy wheel reaches the friction limit of the mud, and starts to spin. The other wheel is also under 800Nm torque, but that's insufficient to make it rotate. In order for it to rotate, either it must spin, or the truck must go forwards. The total torque is only 1600Nm (800+800, which is below the 2000Nm required to shift the truck), and the "solid" wheel's torque is limited to 800Nm by the open diff, so instead, that wheel just sits there unmoving, invisibly pushing at 800Nm. Your truck is stuck with a shortfall of 400Nm.

So you try again with the axle diff locked. Now, each side is driven by the locked diff at whatever torque it can generate, individually. As you press the pedal, torque rises to 800Nm at each side.. but it doesn't stop there. The side with more traction continues to increase in torque, until it finally reaches 1200Nm. At that point, the total torque reaches the required 2000Nm (800+1200), so your truck start to move.

Had the muddy part been more slippery, supporting only 600Nm, say, then even the locked differential wouldn't have been enough. The slippery wheel would supply 600Nm, and the good side would need to provide 1400Nm. But at 1300Nm, the dirt under that wheel would start to give way too, and the truck would sit, both wheels spinning stubbornly, 100Nm short of what's needed (1300+600=1900).


Once you start to think in terms of differentials equalising the torques (and understanding that the torques are generated by traction), you can start thinking about your "lines" in terms of which lines will supply the best combination of torque at each wheel, and weigh those up against which lines will have the lowest total torque requirement. Most of it is doing what ntsqd described - picking lines based on experience and common sense. But it can also be refined by thinking about the effect of a locked or unlocked diff. With an unlocked diff, you never want the wheels to have very different tractions, because the wheel with better traction will always be reduced to the same level of torque as the wheel with worse traction. So, better to choose a line with moderate traction at both wheels, than a line with excellent traction at one wheel and lousy traction at the other.

Also, it's worth remembering that there are degrees of getting stuck - in the second example above, the traction was enough to supply a torque only 400Nm short of what was required. Yet an observer would probably just see that one wheel was slipping in the mud, and assume the stationary wheel was doing nothing at all. In fact, of course, it is supplying just the same amount of torque as the moving wheel, so perhaps all that is needed is a minor, rather than a major change of line. (All you need is another 200Nm of grip in the mud, and the other 200Nm comes "free of charge" from the other wheel!).

Anyway, I hope this rather long-winded description of differentials has helped dispel some of the misunderstanding of what diffs do, rather than generated more confusion!

Rgds,

Michael...
 

Grim Reaper

Expedition Leader
WOW Michael Groves!!!!!

Loved the read on Sandy and your travels. Anything new happening? Last up date is nearly 3 years old.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
Hi, and thank you, Grim Reaper.

Nothing on the expedition front, for now! But.. this very day, I am a happy man, Sandy gave birth to our twin girls this morning, so we have some new expedition vehicle challenges to work on!

I keep intending to revise and add information to our website though, it always just seems to be a job for tomorrow :)

M...
 

gooseboy

Observer
Wow i love this forum.. I didnt even need a flame suit.

Im still kinda confused about the tire measurments though..

Believe me im looking for a group to offroad with but.. I doubt to many people wanna offroad with a teenager who doesnt even have a rig yet..
 
gooseboy said:
Wow i love this forum.. I didnt even need a flame suit.

Im still kinda confused about the tire measurments though..

Believe me im looking for a group to offroad with but.. I doubt to many people wanna offroad with a teenager who doesnt even have a rig yet..

You won't need a flame suit here. One of the reason most of us are here. We can ask question without fear of attack.
 

Grim Reaper

Expedition Leader
michaelgroves said:
Hi, and thank you, Grim Reaper.

Nothing on the expedition front, for now! But.. this very day, I am a happy man, Sandy gave birth to our twin girls this morning, so we have some new expedition vehicle challenges to work on!

I keep intending to revise and add information to our website though, it always just seems to be a job for tomorrow :)

M...
Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!
 

madizell

Explorer
michaelgroves said:
I fixed Wikipedia's introduction to locking differentials, since it was just plain wrong:

Most people imagine that an open diff allows all the torque to be supplied to the wheel with no traction (which then spins uselessly), and that a locked diff supplies equal torque to both wheels (giving you a better chance of getting out of the mire).

But in fact, it is precisely the other way around!

An open diff always puts equal torque on each half-shaft. A locked diff allows them to have unequal torques.

Sorry to disagree, but I do. Your explanation tends to describe what tires do with torque applied, in terms of traction available, as if the availability of traction has something to do with the amount of torque available within the driveline. This is simply not the case. Lift all the driving wheels off the ground and how much torque is available? For a given power setting, the amount available is the same as with all the wheels solidly on the ground. Differentials are designed to allow two wheels on the same axle to rotate at different speeds such that one may turn a corner without scuffing the inside tire which necessarily travels a shorter course than the outside wheel. The amount of available torque is the same going around a corner as going straight, but the axle uses that power differently due to the different length of course each tire takes.

When the problem is uncertain ground, an open differential, not knowing how to handle mud or whatever, senses the difference in resistance to applied torque and shifts power away from the wheel with the most resistance (the inside tire in a corner, the one on solid ground where the other is in the mud in such an example, or the one on the ground if the other is off the ground, whatever is the cause of the reduction in resistance).

Personally, I believe that the explanation in Wikipedia was correct to start with. A locked axle, or if easier to understand, a spooled axle, can not differentiate one side of the axle from the other, so applies equal force to each as it must do because each axle half is locked together. The result is exactly the same as if you has a solid, single rear axle shaft driven by a hard mounted gear, as is the case in some ATV's for example, or a child's peddle car with a live axle. Under no circumstances can a live axle with no differential supply unequal force to one or the other side of the shaft. What each tire can do with the force supplied is a different question and has nothing whatever to do with the differential itself.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
madizell said:
Sorry to disagree, but I do.
Of course - that's what this forum is for! However, it's important to distinguish between things that are really matters of opinion, and those that are matters of fact. We can validly disagree on which tyres we prefer, for example, and simply (and perhaps enthusiastically) state our reasons without one of us being right and the other wrong. But this really is a matter of fact - open differentials really do equalise the torque. So I am not trying to persuade you of my point of view, I'm explaining as best I can, how the diff operates.


madizell said:
Your explanation tends to describe what tires do with torque applied, in terms of traction available, as if the availability of traction has something to do with the amount of torque available within the driveline. This is simply not the case. Lift all the driving wheels off the ground and how much torque is available? For a given power setting, the amount available is the same as with all the wheels solidly on the ground.
Yes, precisely. The availability of traction is all to do with the amount of torque. Without traction, there is no torque. If you measure the torque on an axle where there is no traction (resistance from the ground) at all, it will be zero, no matter what power your engine has. (Power, btw, is a measure of how fast your engine can apply or is applying any given torque, = torque x rpm, so power is also zero when there is zero torque).


madizell said:
Differentials are designed to allow two wheels on the same axle to rotate at different speeds such that one may turn a corner without scuffing the inside tire which necessarily travels a shorter course than the outside wheel. The amount of available torque is the same going around a corner as going straight, but the axle uses that power differently due to the different length of course each tire takes.
Agreed. That's the design purpose of a differential, and a side effect is that each wheel has the same torque when going around the corner. (Ergo, there is more power delivered to the faster wheel. But it is torque that generates the force that moves the vehicle - power is irrelevant).

madizell said:
When the problem is uncertain ground, an open differential, not knowing how to handle mud or whatever, senses the difference in resistance to applied torque and shifts power away from the wheel with the most resistance (the inside tire in a corner, the one on solid ground where the other is in the mud in such an example, or the one on the ground if the other is off the ground, whatever is the cause of the reduction in resistance).

And this is where the one needs to be careful how one interprets what one sees, and how one describes things. Yes, you are quite right that the differential "senses" the reduction in torque at the slippery or raised or outer wheel. Then all it does is reduce the applied torque at the other wheel correspondingly. If you apply your right foot some more, the engine tries to supply more torque, but the differential simply allows the motion to follow the path of least resistance, by spinning the slippery wheel faster and faster, but still feeding both wheels identical torques. There's no mystery to this equalisation - the faces on the planetary gears inside the diff are pushing simultaneously on each side-gear, and whichever one offers less resistance will simply turn faster, so the forces can't become unequal.


madizell said:
Personally, I believe that the explanation in Wikipedia was correct to start with. A locked axle, or if easier to understand, a spooled axle, can not differentiate one side of the axle from the other, so applies equal force to each as it must do because each axle half is locked together. The result is exactly the same as if you has a solid, single rear axle shaft driven by a hard mounted gear, as is the case in some ATV's for example, or a child's peddle car with a live axle. Under no circumstances can a live axle with no differential supply unequal force to one or the other side of the shaft.
A locked diff, by contrast, is indeed effectively just a single shaft, driven from the middle. And here's where you are wrong: each side will have different torques, depending on the resistance at each end. One shaft, two different torques? Yes, because it is driven from the middle. So if you apply a brake (say) to one end only, then the twisting force on that half of the shaft will be large, while the force on the other side is zero. You can predict which side will break first, because you know that one side is under torque, and the other side is not. You just haven't thought about it that way before :)


Anyway, I hope I haven't come across as arrogant - I have tried not to, but at the same time, I am quite certain of the facts, so I don't want to pretend that both of us can be right! Hopefully I have clarified things a bit?

Rgds,

M...
 
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MaddBaggins

Explorer
gooseboy said:
Wow i love this forum.. I didnt even need a flame suit.

Im still kinda confused about the tire measurments though..

Believe me im looking for a group to offroad with but.. I doubt to many people wanna offroad with a teenager who doesnt even have a rig yet..


Gooseboy
Since you're a teenager who doesn't yet have a vehicle, I would suggest finding a family member who might be into cars/trucks and hook up with them for a little mechanical instruction. If you don't have that option, try to find a local offroad club. If they are worth knowing, they probably won't mind helping you out a bit.
Like someone said earlier in this discussion, many things are easier to show than type out on the internet.
Post in the fireside chat section and find out if anyone here is in Oklahoma. That might be a good place to start.
 

Nullifier

Expedition Leader
Lockers are a great tool for navigating tuff trials but you are generally better served by having a winch if you are a beginner. My philosophy on that is lockers get you into trouble, and winches get you out of trouble. And geting out of trouble should be your first concern rather then your last. Especially on expeditions.
 

t0mills

Adventurer
Hey Gooseboy, Where at in Oklahoma are you? The reason I ask, is because next weekend (March 15th & 16th) is a big weekend over there. I will be there, and so will several hundred other rigs. It would be a great place for you to learn about offroading, and it's always fun to watch.

I'll be taking my landcruiser and my ATV. Let me know if you think you can make it.

-Tim
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
gooseboy said:
Wow i love this forum.. I didnt even need a flame suit.

Im still kinda confused about the tire measurments though..

Believe me im looking for a group to offroad with but.. I doubt to many people wanna offroad with a teenager who doesnt even have a rig yet..

I'll venture that the right club will welcome you. If finding one through friends & family doesn't work you might try asking any local repair shop that works on 4 wheel drives about clubs in your area. Contact them about attending one of their meetings. If you show yourself to be respectful, helpful, and willing to learn I think people will find a seat for you.

One possibility: http://www.trailchasers.com/menu.htm
 

gooseboy

Observer
t0mills said:
Hey Gooseboy, Where at in Oklahoma are you? The reason I ask, is because next weekend (March 15th & 16th) is a big weekend over there. I will be there, and so will several hundred other rigs. It would be a great place for you to learn about offroading, and it's always fun to watch.

I'll be taking my landcruiser and my ATV. Let me know if you think you can make it.

-Tim

Im in central OK just outside of Oklahoma City. Where is this going down?
 

gooseboy

Observer
ntsqd said:
I'll venture that the right club will welcome you. If finding one through friends & family doesn't work you might try asking any local repair shop that works on 4 wheel drives about clubs in your area. Contact them about attending one of their meetings. If you show yourself to be respectful, helpful, and willing to learn I think people will find a seat for you.

One possibility: http://www.trailchasers.com/menu.htm

Thanks for the link! Emailing the president of the club right now.
 

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