Wheel Spacers vs. Backspacing

michaelgroves

Explorer
ntsqd said:
Aluminum has a limited fatigue life, mild steel does not.

All that really means is that there is a (very low) load limit below which steel won't fatigue, regardless of how many cycles it is subjected to, and that in the case of aluminium, that load limit is just about zero. In other words, aluminium will fail, if subjected to enough cycles of any size load. In principle, you could eventually break your aluminium wheel by pushing on it repeatedly with your hand, if the universe hadn't come to an end before then!

It's not such a big job to do a stress analysis on a spacer design and show that it's good (or not) for whatever load and service life it's being designed for - just as they do when designing wheels.

I do understand your point though, and I concede that such "simple" items as spacers are often made by people who don't do the analysis, and therefore it's an unknown.
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
klahanie said:
aam925dodgeresize2.jpg


Aren't there an awful lot of 1 ton duallies running around with front spacers?

Wow! That thing must steer like an ox-cart, with that amount of spacing! Look at the size of the arc described by the mounting surface when steering!
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
They're made from a steel casting, and use a dually wheel with the attendant massive offset. The lug nuts are well outboard of the tire's centerline, so the scrub radius isn't as bad as it might seem.

inked33 said:
all metal has a fatigue life. im no metalurgist by any means but have worked with aluminum before and know that everything depends on the grade of aluminum used.

Perhaps I should be more clear. "The term Endurance Limit is used only to represent the infinite-life strength for those materials having one" (Machine Design - Norton; Page 360, ISBN 0-13-897802-6). So long as the stress stays under ~0.5UTS of a material with an Endurance Limit, it's fatigue life is infinite.
Aluminum has no Endurance Limit as do steels, irons, titaniums, and some stainless steels. It's fatigue life is usually set at 500,000 cycles. Aluminum's Fatigue Strength is the stress that produces a failure at that number of cycles. Lower the stress to increase the fatigue life. Increase the stress and the fatigue life is reduced. It may be that the stress of a given application is so low that in all practicality the part will never fail, but never is aluminum's fatigue life said to be infinite.
 

R_Lefebvre

Expedition Leader
One thing I'd like to bring into this interesting discussion is the idea of hub centric wheel spacers. This is certainly an issue with cars, and is often the cause of failure of wheel spacer systems. I don't know if it's a factor on trucks?

On most modern FWD cars, the vertical load of the weight of the car, as it passes from the hub to the wheel, is not meant to be borne by the clamping force of the wheel to the hub face, nor is it meant to be borne by a shear load on the lugs. Rather, there is a lip machined on the face of the hub, which keys into a recess bored into the mounting face of the wheel. The vertical loads are transmitted through this keyed fit. The lug nuts are therefore simply required to clamp the wheel to the face of the hub.

Cheap car spacers often do away with this "hub centric" design, so that one spacer can be cut which will fit many models with varying wheel bore sizes. The loss of the hub centric design means the vertical loads are passed on to the studs, which were not sized for this, and eventually the studs fail. The same is also true of cheap aftermarket wheels, machined with an oversize bore but meant to be installed with adaptor rings. Often times the rings are not installed, and the result is the same.

Somebody early on mentioned spacers being used in racing, and therefore it must be ok. Spacers are often banned from racing, because of all the problems they cause. I have to use 4mm spacers on my Focus to get the wheel spokes to clear the 4 piston brakes. It hasn't been an issue, because the spacers are only 4mm, and I also machined custom hub adaptor rings which reach through the spacers to key into the wheels.

I was surprised when changing the wheels on my Discovery the first time, to find that the wheels are not hub centric. The vertical loads are taken up by the studs. Is this the case on all trucks?

Riddle me this. What makes aluminum 'aircraft grade'?

I'm glad you brought that up, because it is a pet peeve of mine. It is a marketting term, in common usage. 6061-T6 is a grade of aluminum used in aircraft. Therefore the term "aircraft grade". The reality is, it's pretty much the most common type of alumuminum available to small volume fabricators, and is the defacto standard used in ANY custom fabrication. Walk into any metal supplier, and tell them you "need 6" of 6" dia Aluminum". You could be building wheel spacers, or you could be using it as a door stop. 6061-T6 is likely the grade you'll get. If you tell them "I'm just building a billet ashtray for fun, do you have anything cheaper?" No. That's as low as they'll generally have.

So if you wanted, you could make yourself an ashtray machined out of billet "aircraft grade" aluminum.

Where am I going with this... basically, the term is overused, and completely meaningless, as just about anything custom machined is going to be "aircraft grade". And "aircraft grade" really means "nothing special". But it sounds good.
 
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michaelgroves

Explorer
R_Lefebvre said:
I was surprised when changing the wheels on my Discovery the first time, to find that the wheels are not hub centric. The vertical loads are taken up by the studs. Is this the case on all trucks?

Certainly it's true of the older Land Rovers - Series trucks, Defenders, RRCs and D1s. I actually thought they changed to hub-centric with the new DII stud pattern wheels!

I can see why hub-centric might be better for a high-performance vehicle, but it hardly seems necessary for a slow 4x4 truck, surely?
 

michaelgroves

Explorer
klahanie said:
Bear in mind duallie wheels have a large amount of offset. The front wheel track is similar if not the same as a SRW model.

Oh, ok.

Why do the spacer then, btw? Never had much to do with dual-wheel trucks, so I'm clueless!
 

Jeep

Supporting Sponsor: Overland Explorer Expedition V
michaelgroves said:
Oh, ok.

Why do the spacer then, btw? Never had much to do with dual-wheel trucks, so I'm clueless!

It is done so that only one spare tire is required and will work in all 6 positions. Most cab and chassis configurations track the front with the outer rear while a dually pick up (with the big fenders on the box) track closer to the inner rear which also means a dually pick up axle is wider than a standard 1 ton rear diff that would be in a single wheel pick up or a dually cab and chassis.
 

2drx4

Adventurer
R_Lefebvre said:
I'm glad you brought that up, because it is a pet peeve of mine. It is a marketting term, in common usage. 6061-T6 is a grade of aluminum used in aircraft. Therefore the term "aircraft grade". The reality is, it's pretty much the most common type of alumuminum available to small volume fabricators, and is the defacto standard used in ANY custom fabrication. Walk into any metal supplier, and tell them you "need 6" of 6" dia Aluminum". You could be building wheel spacers, or you could be using it as a door stop. 6061-T6 is likely the grade you'll get. If you tell them "I'm just building a billet ashtray for fun, do you have anything cheaper?" No. That's as low as they'll generally have.

So if you wanted, you could make yourself an ashtray machined out of billet "aircraft grade" aluminum.

Where am I going with this... basically, the term is overused, and completely meaningless, as just about anything custom machined is going to be "aircraft grade". And "aircraft grade" really means "nothing special". But it sounds good.


Actually, 6061-T3 is rarely used on aircraft. It is considered junk. The strength to weight ratio rules out its usage for the most part. I've seen some 6061-T651, however.

ntsqd, however, is correct. Aircraft grade ANYTHING has a paper trail, and that's all that makes it aircraft grade. I have plenty of aircraft hardware that, by the book, is no longer suitable for aircraft use simply because I don't have the paper to go with it.

So, no, the spacers sold as being made from 'aircraft grade' aluminum are NOT so. Unless they give you the paper trail to go with it.
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
2drx4 said:
snippage.....

So, no, the spacers sold as being made from 'aircraft grade' aluminum are NOT so. Unless they give you the paper trail to go with it.
Wouldn't that be fun, Request the paperwork that goes with aircraft spec materials from a wheel spacer mfg that uses "aircraft grade" in their advertising.
:wings:

Wheel Centric; Right or wrong I always thought that it had more to do with concentricity than load carrying. So long as all of the bits involved are designed to use conic wheel nuts I never saw any need for it. I still don't.
 

w_b

Observer
ntsqd said:
...Wheel Centric; Right or wrong I always thought that it had more to do with concentricity than load carrying. So long as all of the bits involved are designed to use conic wheel nuts I never saw any need for it. I still don't.
Apparently neither did the tire store that put new wheels on our Mini. The new wheels are not hub centric as were the OEMs. I just assumed they would be. Even though the wheel bolts are conical, using a spacer to adapt the wheel to the hub, returning it to hub centric makes sense. I'm going to look into that.

Informative thread.

I sincerely believe I'm going to learn quite a bit watching this board.
 

xcmountain80

Expedition Leader
tommudd said:
In some states it is NOT LEGAL to run them. I think for what they cost $200 plus you can find a set of wheels with the right backspacing and not have to worry about 40 nuts instead of 20 that are easy to see and check. I ran them for a short time ( spidertrax) they did OK but just did not think it was worth it

$200? Maybe per wheel, I've been running 1" wheel spacers since 72K and I'm on 201K so I'd say they are safe and well that's about it. I check them b4 trips and extended adventures. I do have a odd wheel wobble that comes and goes and whether related to the spacers or not I can not rule them completely out, though I cant run the wheels w/o them so I guess I'll never know. Unless of course I spend the $200 per wheel and ...... $800 later I'm good to go.

Aaron
 

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