Why not enhance rounder AT tires with snow chains and similar devices?

[winkosmosis]

Tire chains are only something I've heard of, since I live in Texas.

If they work for snow, why not use them for mud, dirt, and any situation where you need a more knobbly tire? That way you could run all terrains for hard pack dirt roads, gravel, and pavement- then put on the chains for soft stuff.


This company advertises their Snow Claws as being usable for dirt as well as snow.
http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/sncltrsy.html

How about this?
http://www.olofsfors.se/default.aspx?id=3693&refid=3655&listAllArticles=3649

 

[Deleted member 9101]

I used them in Korea to get up a very muddy mountain road. The only problem, other than the crappy ride, is that you can't go fast or spin your tired much.

 

[java]

ive seen them used for mud a few times, works good, but like Jnich said dont spin your tires much

 

[w squared]

They will indeed work in mud. I've used them on 1 ton trucks in snow, ice, and mud. They won't work miracles, but they will generally get you that little bit of extra bite that may get you where you need to be.

The are a few problems though:

#1. Ride. Unless the surface you're on is super-soft, the ride is very rough.

#2. It's hard on the tires. You can rub holes in the sidewalls of your tires if you leave the chains on long enough and don't pay attention.

#3. It's hard on the chains. Their lifespan is generally measured in hundreds of miles, not thousands. As tire sizes get bigger, chains can get a little pricey.

#4. It's hard on your differential and axle shafts. When chains bite into the ground, they BITE. This puts added stress on the differential when you turn.

#5. It can do VERY bad things to your fenders. If part of a chain breaks loose, it can cause HUGE damage to your bodywork in a very short period of time.

#6. It's hard on the trail. Running chains on anything other than frozen ground will tear the trail up in a big way. If the amount of mud on the trail indicates that I'll only make it through with chains on, then I'll turn around and go home instead of tearing up the area.

#7. Pain in the butt factor. Putting chains on is about as much fun as changing a tire when your spare is mounted under the vehicle. Do you really want to do that in the mud? Also bear in mind that you'll be stopping to check tension on your chains 1 mile after you first put them on, and then again hourly after that. At least if you want to avoid bad thing #5 that I mentioned above...

#8. Speed - you don't want be traveling any faster than about 20 MPH. Going faster than this with chains on will dramatically increase the chances of the above issues causing big problems for you.

#9. Foresight. Chains are best used before you get stuck. Sometimes it's hard to know when that "stuck" is going to happen. You may need to spend a LOT of time shovelling if you are trying to put chains on after you get stuck.

Some heavy (as in Peterbilt size) trucks run chains for longer periods of time on logging roads or oilfield roads - but that's a different animal in terms of how heavy the chains are and the type of vehicle that's running them. Every trucker I know agrees that chains are the only way to go certain places...but they'd rather not use them if they don't have to.

I personally carry two sets of V-bar chains (front and rear) in my Jeep during the winter months. They're "required equipment" for many of the winter trail runs that the Jeep club I belong to does, and they're the best way I know of to stay mobile when the weather in the mountains truly goes downhill. They're required in some areas of British Columbia if you're not using specific "winter tread" tires...not that I think anyone is going to ask me to see my chains when I'm driving an obviously modified Jeep. :smiley_drive:

 

[paulj]

One provincial park in central BC has this travel recommendation

Drive with caution. Roads are extremely slippery following rain. Avoid driving on the access road and the road through the park in wet conditions. There is a high probability of accidents, or of becoming stuck.
Carry chains and a shovel, even in summer.

http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/bcparks/explore/parkpgs/junction/

I hit a spot of construction on a forest road in this general area. As soon as I left the gravel, my tires started to pick up a slick coating of clay. Fortunately I stopped to check conditions, and was able back up to a good surface. It was tricky to even walk on the stuff.

 

[Harald Hansen]

I've also used chains in extremely muddy conditions a couple of times. They worked well. W Squared got it right up-thread.

 

[winkosmosis]

They will indeed work in mud. I've used them on 1 ton trucks in snow, ice, and mud. They won't work miracles, but they will generally get you that little bit of extra bite that may get you where you need to be.

The are a few problems though:

#1. Ride. Unless the surface you're on is super-soft, the ride is very rough.

#2. It's hard on the tires. You can rub holes in the sidewalls of your tires if you leave the chains on long enough and don't pay attention.

#3. It's hard on the chains. Their lifespan is generally measured in hundreds of miles, not thousands. As tire sizes get bigger, chains can get a little pricey.

#4. It's hard on your differential and axle shafts. When chains bite into the ground, they BITE. This puts added stress on the differential when you turn.

#5. It can do VERY bad things to your fenders. If part of a chain breaks loose, it can cause HUGE damage to your bodywork in a very short period of time.

#6. It's hard on the trail. Running chains on anything other than frozen ground will tear the trail up in a big way. If the amount of mud on the trail indicates that I'll only make it through with chains on, then I'll turn around and go home instead of tearing up the area.

#7. Pain in the butt factor. Putting chains on is about as much fun as changing a tire when your spare is mounted under the vehicle. Do you really want to do that in the mud? Also bear in mind that you'll be stopping to check tension on your chains 1 mile after you first put them on, and then again hourly after that. At least if you want to avoid bad thing #5 that I mentioned above...

#8. Speed - you don't want be traveling any faster than about 20 MPH. Going faster than this with chains on will dramatically increase the chances of the above issues causing big problems for you.

#9. Foresight. Chains are best used before you get stuck. Sometimes it's hard to know when that "stuck" is going to happen. You may need to spend a LOT of time shovelling if you are trying to put chains on after you get stuck.

Some heavy (as in Peterbilt size) trucks run chains for longer periods of time on logging roads or oilfield roads - but that's a different animal in terms of how heavy the chains are and the type of vehicle that's running them. Every trucker I know agrees that chains are the only way to go certain places...but they'd rather not use them if they don't have to.

I personally carry two sets of V-bar chains (front and rear) in my Jeep during the winter months. They're "required equipment" for many of the winter trail runs that the Jeep club I belong to does, and they're the best way I know of to stay mobile when the weather in the mountains truly goes downhill. They're required in some areas of British Columbia if you're not using specific "winter tread" tires...not that I think anyone is going to ask me to see my chains when I'm driving an obviously modified Jeep. :smiley_drive:

Wow, very thorough explanation!

How do the new rubber devices compare to the old fashioned chains? Seems like without studs, they'd actually be worse on ice, but better for snow and mud, without as bad a ride, trail damage, and all the other negative factors.

 

[w squared]

I've never used them, and never actually seen them used. I know that steel cable chains are generally only considered a viable choice for occasional use on light passenger cars, so I'd be hesitant to put plastic or rubber into a situation that's seen as too demanding for steel.

Each "rung" of the "ladder" that is your chains essentially works like a paddle when you're in deep snow or mud. This would make them equivalent to the plastic/rubber items, but obviously the metal will bite more than the plastic.

There are actually three types of chains (in terms of what's on the "rung")

V-Bar chains have a "V" shaped chunk of metal welded onto every link or every second link of the "rung" to provide bite.

Some chains simply have links without studs on each "rung". These are really only suitable for light use, and will not perform all that well on ice. Their life will probably also be shorter than a V-bar chain. They're better than nothing though.

There is also a third type out there...they have carbide studs on the "rungs", but I have never seen them for anything other than heavy trucks. They're also quite expensive...but given that the studs are carbide, they will last longer.

The "Olosfors" device that you posted a link to interested me, so I took a look. It seems that they're meant to be used as a temporary track system for multi-axle forestry vehicles...something along these lines

That'd work like a charm on a 6X6 truck if you could get the right size! :smiley_drive:

 

[alexrex20]

Tire chains are only something I've heard of, since I live in Texas.

If they work for snow, why not use them for mud, dirt, and any situation where you need a more knobbly tire? That way you could run all terrains for hard pack dirt roads, gravel, and pavement- then put on the chains for soft stuff.


This company advertises their Snow Claws as being usable for dirt as well as snow.
http://www.sportsimportsltd.com/sncltrsy.html

How about this?
http://www.olofsfors.se/default.aspx?id=3693&refid=3655&listAllArticles=3649

here's an easier solution: get more aggressive tires.

 

[michaelgroves]

The are a few problems though:
....

Nice summary, w-squared!

here's an easier solution: get more aggressive tires.

If you read his original post, the OP was trying to understand the advantages and disadvantages of running aggressive tyres, as against fitting chains only when aggressive tyres are needed.

If you're likely to need the mud/snow grip only on a very occasional basis, then chains are probably a very good alternative to spending 99% of your time on very knobbly mud tyres. It's common practice in Europe to carry snow chains in winter in the mountains, and very often mandated by law. (I think in parts of the States, too?)

I know that steel cable chains are generally only considered a viable choice for occasional use on light passenger cars, so I'd be hesitant to put plastic or rubber into a situation that's seen as too demanding for steel.

The first part of your sentence is ambiguous, but I understand it to mean that you don't consider chains suitable for heavier vehicles? If so, then that's not at all the case - big trucks and even earthmoving equipment can benefit hugely from chains in both mud and snow!

 

[w squared]

It's common practice in Europe to carry snow chains in winter in the mountains, and very often mandated by law. (I think in parts of the States, too?)

I believe that is true for the US, and I know that is true in parts of Canada.

The first part of your sentence is ambiguous, but I understand it to mean that you don't consider chains suitable for heavier vehicles? If so, then that's not at all the case - big trucks and even earthmoving equipment can benefit hugely from chains in both mud and snow!

Sorry for the ambiguity. I was referring only to "chains" made with relatively small diameter steel cables, sometimes with "beads" or chunks of metal tubing on them for "bite". They usually look like this:

I've seen lots of heavy equipment running real chains.

I just wish that smaller versions of some of those heavy chains were available. They wouldn't be as well suited for use on snow-covered pavement, but I'd love to have a set for off-road winter use. :elkgrin:

 

[DaveInDenver]

#5. It can do VERY bad things to your fenders. If part of a chain breaks loose, it can cause HUGE damage to your bodywork in a very short period of time.

More importantly than fenders to get chains and tensioning devices right is to avoid this taking out a brake lines or wrapping a chain around an axle. Ruining body work would suck, breaking a hydraulic line (usually the rubber brake line gets it) or something is much worse. Some sets are made to fit a couple of different size tires, but I size chain exactly for my tires so that there are no extra links.

 

[paulj]

Usually when the topic comes up on the Honda Element forum, owners in the eastern US and midwest say 'chains? what are those?'. In flat northern areas, snow tires are a better choice.

It's mostly western mountainous states that have laws requiring chains. They vary from state to state. Typically larger vehicles (10,000lb +) are required to carry chains when driving in the mountains, and put them on in conditions where the rest can get by with 'traction tires'. As conditions get worse, everyone may be required to use chains, often with a '4wd' exception.

Part of why chain use is more common in the mountains is the grades. I learned from an Alaska episode of Ice Roads Truckers that if trucks need chains on the Dalton, they use sets that span both wheels of a dual set. But on the laked base ice roads around Yellowknife, they rarely use chains, and when they do, a single-wheel ones are enough.

Another factor is that many drivers crossing mountain passes live in low elevation cities that rarely get snow, and hence few have snow tires. Chains are a temporary tool to deal with occasional conditions.

 

[Stumpalump]

Chains break axles and drive lines easier when using them off road. The chain grabs a rock or root and does not slip at all. Snap goes the driveline.

 

[Mr. Leary]

Chains break axles and drive lines easier when using them off road. The chain grabs a rock or root and does not slip at all. Snap goes the driveline.

Which gets back to the "don't spin the tires" argument. The same thing can happen with a MT anywhere! Spinning tires breaks stuff. Go slow and be patient. A little momentum is usually all you need! :elkgrin: