I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
Great! It could also be a reluctance to upgrade existing, proven models. That way they don't compete with their own newer offerings. Would make sense for a 6HP motor to be more efficient all things being equal.
Winch efficiency: line speed, amperage, and heat factor
- Thread starter RoyJ
- Start date
Very interesting winch, and your observation is bang on - not the quickest line speed, but nice low amperage. I'll definitely be looking more into the Badlands.
I pulled the chart for their 12k model:
Like you mentioned, it's not quick, but the amps are lower than just about anything I've seen so far - the efficiency at 9000 lbs appears to be higher than even the Warn 16.5ti!
Looking back at the DC motor curve I posted, they definitely geared this winch towards the efficiency end (265:1) than power / torque end. Compared to a winch at 156:1, this winch is essentially running a snatch block all the time, and the efficiency proves it.
Quick math shows at 6000 lbs line pull, this winch achieves 44% motor efficiency. I like this winch!
The cutoff point seems to be arbitrary at best - they definitely don't rate it at motor stall. In fact, when Four Wheeler (IIRC) did the test to stall, almost every winch self-destructed itself. Most stalled at 50 - 70% higher than rated max line pull.
The Smittybilt XO-2 is a good example, then 15k and 17.5k winches have the exact same motor, exact same gearing. Their performance is almost identical up till 15k, and the 17.5k winch is simply allowed to run further towards stall current / torque. 450 amp and 2.95 ft/min on the 17.5, 422 amp and 3.94 ft/min on the 15k model. So the 17.5 rating is strictly a marketing move...
It'll be nice if more manufacturers can list their duty cycle, but so far I've only found luck on Warn's industrial lineup:
It starts off at 21% duty cycle, and goes down to 6% at 9500 lbs.
Not the greatest, and hence why I'd like to see winches operate more on the high speed / low line pull side of the scale, either via snatch blocks, or lower gearing. Chances are most winches will get away with exceeding the duty cycle, but this places extra wire on both the winch motor and the truck's electrical system.
Metcalf
Expedition Leader
100% this.
First up, the Badlands 12k. Nothing fancy, just standard Excel plots.
Starting off with the calculations:
Line speed and amperage with respect to line pull:
Power output (line pull x speed / 33000 x 746), in watts, and the efficiency (output over electrical input):
If I were to summarize this winch, I'd say they have definitely geared this towards efficiency than all out line pull. This is evident from a rising power output, and an efficiency curve that's barely dropped from the peak.
Let's refresh ourselves with an ideal DC motor torque, power, and efficiency curve:
If we were to overlay it over the Badland charts, I would guess the 12000 lb cutoff occurs just ahead of peak power, where peak efficiency has dropped by aprrox. 20% or so. This means the motor has a long way to go before stalling, but that also implies the winch housing itself may self-destruct well before motor stall (somewhere 25k lbs by x-axis scale)
My next example will be the opposite end of the gearing scale - the aforementioned ComeUp Blazer.
Starting off with the calculations:
Line speed and amperage with respect to line pull:
Power output (line pull x speed / 33000 x 746), in watts, and the efficiency (output over electrical input):
If I were to summarize this winch, I'd say they have definitely geared this towards efficiency than all out line pull. This is evident from a rising power output, and an efficiency curve that's barely dropped from the peak.
Let's refresh ourselves with an ideal DC motor torque, power, and efficiency curve:
If we were to overlay it over the Badland charts, I would guess the 12000 lb cutoff occurs just ahead of peak power, where peak efficiency has dropped by aprrox. 20% or so. This means the motor has a long way to go before stalling, but that also implies the winch housing itself may self-destruct well before motor stall (somewhere 25k lbs by x-axis scale)
My next example will be the opposite end of the gearing scale - the aforementioned ComeUp Blazer.
Attachments
ComeUp Blazer
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) This winch is geared very tall, and power drops off sharply after 4000 lbs
2) Efficiency also drops sharply after 4000 lbs
3) Interestingly enough, the peak efficiency, for all intended purposes, is identical to the Badland 12k, both about 44%
4) This winch is rated at 14.0hp (twin 7hp motors), while the Badland is rated at 6.0hp. Since both motors have equal efficiency, and the power output of the Blazer is only 156% higher than the Badland, I question if the 14hp rating is legit. My math shows it should be 9.4 hp.
In upcoming comparisons against other winches (I'll start with well known Warn models), we'll see how true the HP ratings are from each manufacturer.
So far, one theory has held true - the ultimate efficiency of DC motors are very close. At which line pull a winch can achieve that efficiency depends largely on gearing.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) This winch is geared very tall, and power drops off sharply after 4000 lbs
2) Efficiency also drops sharply after 4000 lbs
3) Interestingly enough, the peak efficiency, for all intended purposes, is identical to the Badland 12k, both about 44%
4) This winch is rated at 14.0hp (twin 7hp motors), while the Badland is rated at 6.0hp. Since both motors have equal efficiency, and the power output of the Blazer is only 156% higher than the Badland, I question if the 14hp rating is legit. My math shows it should be 9.4 hp.
In upcoming comparisons against other winches (I'll start with well known Warn models), we'll see how true the HP ratings are from each manufacturer.
So far, one theory has held true - the ultimate efficiency of DC motors are very close. At which line pull a winch can achieve that efficiency depends largely on gearing.
Warn 8274
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) Tada, we have a new champ in efficiency at 49.1%. My guess? The spur gears are more efficient than the planetary gears. The motor is a run of the mill Bosch 4.6hp, nothing special. We'll see if this theory holds true in the upcoming Warn models.
2) The gearing on this winch is relatively tall, similar to the ComeUp Blazer. From free-spool to 2000 lbs line pull, it loses 70% of its speed, and the Blazer loses 72%. In compared, the short geared Badland only loses 40% of its speed at 3000 lbs.
3) The above is neither a definitive bad, nor good. It depends on application. In a competition setting, where free spool speed is important to avoid driving over your line, you'd want to go with the Blazer / 8274.
4) At 8000 lbs line pull, we've just barely crested over peak power, but fallen nowhere near as bad as the Blazer in both power and efficiency. I'd say this gear ratio is excellent at extracting power; the Badlands is under-extracting, looks there's more left on the power curve, and the Blazer is way past its prime at 8000 lbs. It's almost as if ComeUp never intended its users to use the winch's full line pull capacity (and that's a fair intention, considering the competition nature).
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) Tada, we have a new champ in efficiency at 49.1%. My guess? The spur gears are more efficient than the planetary gears. The motor is a run of the mill Bosch 4.6hp, nothing special. We'll see if this theory holds true in the upcoming Warn models.
2) The gearing on this winch is relatively tall, similar to the ComeUp Blazer. From free-spool to 2000 lbs line pull, it loses 70% of its speed, and the Blazer loses 72%. In compared, the short geared Badland only loses 40% of its speed at 3000 lbs.
3) The above is neither a definitive bad, nor good. It depends on application. In a competition setting, where free spool speed is important to avoid driving over your line, you'd want to go with the Blazer / 8274.
4) At 8000 lbs line pull, we've just barely crested over peak power, but fallen nowhere near as bad as the Blazer in both power and efficiency. I'd say this gear ratio is excellent at extracting power; the Badlands is under-extracting, looks there's more left on the power curve, and the Blazer is way past its prime at 8000 lbs. It's almost as if ComeUp never intended its users to use the winch's full line pull capacity (and that's a fair intention, considering the competition nature).
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Warn 16.5ti
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) The efficiency number surprised me - at first glance I though this winch had the best efficiency due to the low amps, but it's actually the worst so far.
2) My guess on the low efficiency? The high gear ratio. Usually, the more gears you add, and the greater the difference in gear ratio of each individual gear set, the lower the efficiency.
3) Warn did manage to extract every ounce of power out of the motor, as the power curve ever so slightly started to dip at 16,500 lbs. Meaning, if you have to have this much line pull, there's simply no other way to design it.
4) I believe this winch uses the same 4.6 Bosch as the 8274-50.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) The efficiency number surprised me - at first glance I though this winch had the best efficiency due to the low amps, but it's actually the worst so far.
2) My guess on the low efficiency? The high gear ratio. Usually, the more gears you add, and the greater the difference in gear ratio of each individual gear set, the lower the efficiency.
3) Warn did manage to extract every ounce of power out of the motor, as the power curve ever so slightly started to dip at 16,500 lbs. Meaning, if you have to have this much line pull, there's simply no other way to design it.
4) I believe this winch uses the same 4.6 Bosch as the 8274-50.
Warn Industrial Series 15
Testing my theory that excessive gearing lowers efficiency. I chose the Industrial Series 15 because we can hold the gearing parameter constant (315:1), and the difference is all in the motor. The Series 15 uses a 6hp 70865 motor, essentially an industrial version of the 6hp 68608 in the 9.5XP.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) Theory seems to hold so far. Even though this winch uses a completely different motor than the 16.5ti, their curves / behavior is very similar due to sharing the same gear ratio.
2) Both winches top out at only 36% - 37%, and this peak is experience in the lower line pull range. However, while the 16.5ti has a very narrow peak efficiency point, followed by a steady decline, the Series 15 has a much flatter peak plateau.
3) You can operate the Series 15 anywhere from 3000 - 9000 lbs line pull, and experience nearly constant 35% motor efficiency. Nice!
4) The power curve appears to be still rising, but at 561 amps, I bet Warn capped it off there to prevent excessive efficiency loss. Something the ComeUp Blazer should've done...
Testing my theory that excessive gearing lowers efficiency. I chose the Industrial Series 15 because we can hold the gearing parameter constant (315:1), and the difference is all in the motor. The Series 15 uses a 6hp 70865 motor, essentially an industrial version of the 6hp 68608 in the 9.5XP.
Calculations:
Line speed and amperage wrt line pull:
Power output and efficiency:
Summary:
1) Theory seems to hold so far. Even though this winch uses a completely different motor than the 16.5ti, their curves / behavior is very similar due to sharing the same gear ratio.
2) Both winches top out at only 36% - 37%, and this peak is experience in the lower line pull range. However, while the 16.5ti has a very narrow peak efficiency point, followed by a steady decline, the Series 15 has a much flatter peak plateau.
3) You can operate the Series 15 anywhere from 3000 - 9000 lbs line pull, and experience nearly constant 35% motor efficiency. Nice!
4) The power curve appears to be still rising, but at 561 amps, I bet Warn capped it off there to prevent excessive efficiency loss. Something the ComeUp Blazer should've done...
You are creating these calculation charts right? I think there is something fundamentally flawed with them. I could be wrong. But if you want to calculate the amps and watts, I would use the theoretical voltage of the running vehicle. Not 12volts. That will change the numbers a bit.. ie: 13.8 or more as you increase the load, you may even get to 14.6 volts... I'll have to test this.
So-- for example, assuming all the other actual data is accurate -- 111amps 1332 watts might actually be 1332/13.8=96.52 amps A small difference, but in the grand scheme of things it matters. In the instance of 11268 watts, the difference is more than 100amps. I just don't think you can present this all as fact, just a fun and entertaining exercise, maybe I am mistaken and I am not sure which number Amps, Watts are presented, by whom and on what basis. The numbers presented here add up to 12 volts, exactly, which is not real world.
It is highly dubious if manufacturing claims are entirely accurate, and most certainly will be biased in their favor. It is also nearly impossible to determine this data unless you actually did an actual comparison under identical conditions, electric supply, wiring, pulling conditions, etc... As an example of this, if you run/test/own a winch and the wiring is undersized for the load, heat is created, which is going to represent energy not delivered to the winch, ie: it is lost. So one important factor maybe as or more important than any other is to properly install whichever winch you use, to use a shorter winch cable and use snatch blocks. All of which can dramatically change how your winch performs. As I mentioned before in this thread, I'm not in a particular hurry myself for various reasons when winching.
To be fair, it seems like there are several types of winch gear types. It seems like I read an article, it might have been here or somewhere else. They described winch gear type efficiency, which is where our 'consumer' grade winches are basically middle of the road compromises. Something along the line of Planetary Gear 65%, Worm Gear 40$ and Spur Gear 75%. Then of course there are the Hydraulics systems. It is an interesting and fun exercise but can be a bit overdone and subject to unscientific opinions and speculation.
Speaking of neat things you can do with a winch as Metcalf mentioned previously. I did manage to use my winch with some snatch blocks to bend down a rock slider on a defender that got seriously bent on the passenger side, that you could not open the doors. This field expedient use of the winch did the job, and they were able to wheel the rest of the weekend with use of the doors.
Admittedly, I haven't been following this too closely since page 2-3 or so, it's lining up to be an epic tug of war though.
Am I missing something?
:lurk:
So-- for example, assuming all the other actual data is accurate -- 111amps 1332 watts might actually be 1332/13.8=96.52 amps A small difference, but in the grand scheme of things it matters. In the instance of 11268 watts, the difference is more than 100amps. I just don't think you can present this all as fact, just a fun and entertaining exercise, maybe I am mistaken and I am not sure which number Amps, Watts are presented, by whom and on what basis. The numbers presented here add up to 12 volts, exactly, which is not real world.
It is highly dubious if manufacturing claims are entirely accurate, and most certainly will be biased in their favor. It is also nearly impossible to determine this data unless you actually did an actual comparison under identical conditions, electric supply, wiring, pulling conditions, etc... As an example of this, if you run/test/own a winch and the wiring is undersized for the load, heat is created, which is going to represent energy not delivered to the winch, ie: it is lost. So one important factor maybe as or more important than any other is to properly install whichever winch you use, to use a shorter winch cable and use snatch blocks. All of which can dramatically change how your winch performs. As I mentioned before in this thread, I'm not in a particular hurry myself for various reasons when winching.
To be fair, it seems like there are several types of winch gear types. It seems like I read an article, it might have been here or somewhere else. They described winch gear type efficiency, which is where our 'consumer' grade winches are basically middle of the road compromises. Something along the line of Planetary Gear 65%, Worm Gear 40$ and Spur Gear 75%. Then of course there are the Hydraulics systems. It is an interesting and fun exercise but can be a bit overdone and subject to unscientific opinions and speculation.
Speaking of neat things you can do with a winch as Metcalf mentioned previously. I did manage to use my winch with some snatch blocks to bend down a rock slider on a defender that got seriously bent on the passenger side, that you could not open the doors. This field expedient use of the winch did the job, and they were able to wheel the rest of the weekend with use of the doors.
Admittedly, I haven't been following this too closely since page 2-3 or so, it's lining up to be an epic tug of war though.
Am I missing something?
:lurk:
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I did the calculations, but the data is strictly as provided by the OEMs. We don't know what power supply they used, it could be an industrial power supply providing 12.00V (likely for Warn), or it could be some random truck an engineer owns (the smaller companies).
In real life, unless you have a diesel running dual 200 amp alternators, it's very unlikely a winch will receive vehicle voltage. Even if you do, a 10' 2AWG wire at 500 amps will lose 1.5V, so any change of approaching 14.6v is gone. Even 4/0 would still lose half a volt.
So I took the most reasonable approach - assume 12.00V under load. Even this is optimistic. When I load tested my battery to 400 amps, it quickly dropped to 10.5V
Actually, since all data is provided in amps, if you assume 13.8V then you'd have to increase wattage by 13.8/12. 111A stays constant, and 1332W becomes 1531W. But again, few guys have 400A alternators running 4/0 cable...
Of course, none of numbers should be taken as EXACT. I'm presenting them to illustrate a trend. Regardless of how amperage / wattage is measure, the efficiency patterns are still the same (within reason).
The mains goal is to help people understand where their winch develops best efficiency (power conservation) or best power (fastest pull), and not measure single digit accuracy. For instance, someone with a ComeUp Blazer may assume the FASTEST way to pull out an 8000 lbs F350 frame deep in mud is a single pull, when in fact, he can speed up the pull 5 folds by using two snatch blocks and cutting the effective line pull to 2666 lbs.
For sure. But this is the best we've got, is it not?
Once again, I'm not trying to measure power draw down to the decimal. I'm illustrating pattern - where the most power occurs, and where the most power savings occur. Which winch is under-geared, which is over-geared. Which has the most power, and the least...
For sure. But we're assuming again. How do we know the OEM didn't use a closed-loop feedback power supply guaranteeing 12.0V at the terminal?
Wire voltage loss is another topic; I didn't want to confuse people with yet another variable.
If we include that, then should we include battery voltage drop? Then we'd need battery volt-current curves of every possible size / make / model. Just where do we draw the line?
Gear efficiency is fairly simple to calculate, and stays relatively constant (unless you really screwed up the design of the gear mesh). What I'm focusing on is DC motor efficiency.
I do not know if a different way, other than to study the charts of every winch. But if you can think of anything else please share. After all that's what this thread is about - sharing information.
I do want to look at hydraulics as well, but that may have too many uncertainties. We'd have to factor in the efficiency of the pump, drive belt / PTO.
For sure, winches can be real handy. Look no further to wrecker operators, especially the heavy ones (tridem axle semi recovery). They do some amazing and creative work with their (powerful) winches!
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
Having constants like voltage, temperatures, physical alignments are a must if you want to have accurate data when testing. Otherwise, your results just don't mean anything. Now, you could test at different voltages etc. but for the purposes of publishing specifications I'd think you would want to have those factors constant.
Good point about the variation of 12V vs. 13.8 or higher.
Good point about the variation of 12V vs. 13.8 or higher.
I Leak Oil
Expedition Leader
No worries, I don't think anyone has taken it that way.
Thanks for the info. I kind of figured Warn would be the leader in R&D and testing, being the biggest player around. Which is why I'm looking into their winch specs first, to use as a datum.
We won't know if the other manufacturers are lying or not just by their published specs. But what we could do is plot the curves and look for patterns. If their efficiency is over-the-top good, and their motors make a huge flat plateau of power, then chances are they're not being honest. That's why I focus so on trend and pattern.
I'll know more once I dig into more Badland and Smitybilt models, as well as the more reputable players like Ramsey.