X-Line? Viking Winchline? Amsteel Blue?

[p1michaud]

Line rating

If you double the pulling power, you will need the extra strength. That is at least how I justified the 3/8 line for my Bellview 5687.

Important to understand that even if you use a snatch block and double your pulling power the line tension/force on the line does not increase. The individual line tension/force will never exceed what your winch can pull.

For example: if you attach a snatch block to an anchor point say a tree then run the line from your winch out to the snatch block then back to a point on your vehicle you now have two lines that each have roughly the same tension applied to them (minus friction losses due to the pulley). In the case of an 8000 lb winch that would mean nearly 8000 lb. That means that a line rated for 8000 lb would be sufficient. You now have to ensure that your anchor point and rigging can witstand a pulling force of 16 000 lbs. Of course this would be in ideal conditions such as first wrap on the drum of your winch, initial pull when winch is cold, full charge on battery or alternator that can keep up with your winch, etc... Does this make sense, I find it's difficult to explain without a diagram.

Now, a little extra margin as provided by a larger rope is a good thing. Just remember that all your rigging must be able to handle the pull.

Cheers :beer:,
P

 

[Jeep]

I have sold a pile of synthetic winch line and have some experience to share that might go a long way here. I'll explain the failures and successes that I have experienced with rope.

Heavy trucks (your Blazer)-bad choice. I have seen many cases where the rope works it's way into the spool rather than staying on top like cable, not really a problem until it breaks and the end is tighter than hell and not accessible. Out comes the knife!

Mud-the stuff does not like mud, it failed very often after it got dirty. This was on 2 Jeep TJ's with 8000 and 9500 pound winches, 35" rubber and experienced drivers. I was denied any of the warranty advertised by the manufacturer beacause it was "saturated with dirt", I have never sold a certain blue brand since.

My 2300 pound rock buggy-worked awesome, until it broke in a bad situation. It did not take much of a rub on a hard dirt ledge to break. There is now cable on that rig!

So for expedition work I would not recommend rope. I would not trust a recovery product that has so many operating parameters. Remember what a winch is for and why it is there, you will most likely be using it in mud, or snow, you might not always have a straight pull, expedition trucks are generally on the heavier side, and God forbid a failure in a life and death situation far from help. Nothing can replace common sense but sometimes we need as much as we can get out of a product like a winch, and the reliabilty of a steel cable. Spend your money on a high quality wire rope instead, because the stuff that comes from the factory on most winches is pretty low grade stuff. I prefer a higher wire count of a smaller gauge wire for flexability and ease of spooling. Cable for crane and hoisting is generally very high quality and affordable.

 

[michaelgroves]

nope. if you use a snatch block, and the full 8000 pounds, each "line" will only see roughly 4000 pounds.

(keep in mind youll loose 5% of your remaining pulling power per pulley in the system.)

I'm sure what zimm meant was that each "line" will see 8000lbs! The total pull will be 16000lbs because the entire line is under 8000lbs tension, and it is doubled back on itself.

Also, I believe each snatch block will sap a whole lot more than 5% in terms of frictional losses.

Keep in mind that although the rope only needs to be suited to an 8000lbs pull, the snatch block and its rigging feels the full 16000lbs. So the snatch block itself, and whatever you attach to it, must be able to take a full 16000lbs. This is *very* important. Firstly, don't skimp on the snatch-block itself. It must be rated at at least twice your winch's rating. Secondly, if you use an extension rope shackled to the snatch block (as opposed to running through the block), it must also be twice the minimum rating of the winch rope. Likewise any slings, tree-strops etc. used at the anchor end. (Also, as Scott says, when you double the winch rope rope back through the snatch block, attach the free end to a separate anchor on the vehicle. The winch mount, probably including bumper, will already be under 8000lbs pull, so the other 8000 should be pulling on some other suitable part of the chassis.)

Here's the killer: if you break the strop or any other part of the rigging on the far side of the snatch block, then the snatch block and all the remains of the broken rigging can be catapulted back in the direction of the winch. Broken synthetic line on its own is relatively harmless, but if it has bits of shackle, hook, snatchblock, bumper etc. attached to it, it can be lethal, especially under 16000lbs of tension.

One final point - if you have an electric winch, keep in mind that the pull it can exert when it stalls can be far higher than its rated capacity. As the motor slows, it starts to draw more and more current, and it will quickly trip or burn out. But in its dying seconds, its torque starts heading for infinity... This is not too much of a problem if the worst case is a broken synthetic line. But if you have broken hardware, or hardware in the middle of the pull, keep well outside the potential radius of the flying bits, and try to avoid the winch stalling.

 

[michaelgroves]

So for expedition work I would not recommend rope. I would not trust a recovery product that has so many operating parameters. Remember what a winch is for and why it is there, you will most likely be using it in mud, or snow, you might not always have a straight pull, expedition trucks are generally on the heavier side, and God forbid a failure in a life and death situation far from help. Nothing can replace common sense but sometimes we need as much as we can get out of a product like a winch, and the reliabilty of a steel cable.

I'll have to respectfully disagree! :arabia:

Of course, synthetic line does have its parameters, just as steel cable does. But the problems and how to avoid them are well understood. Yes, it is prone to abrasion, and more so than steel cable. So you may have to rig it more carefully to avoid contact with the ground. But in mitigation, it's quicker and easier to rig in the first place. Neither steel nor synthetic rope likes dirt, but synthetic is easier to clean.

Heavy trucks (your Blazer)-bad choice. I have seen many cases where the rope works it's way into the spool rather than staying on top like cable, not really a problem until it breaks and the end is tighter than hell and not accessible. Out comes the knife!

Synthetic is a bit more likely than steel cable to cut down through the layers and get jammed. But when it does happen to steel, it is much more of a problem (the jamming is tighter, the cable gets damaged, and you can't even use a knife to release it). And synthetic can be spliced in the field if the worst comes to the worst. But unlike steel it is easy to avoid this issue with synthetic - every now and again, criss-cross a layer across the whole width of the drum. Synthetic doesn't mind being under itself, whereas steel gets crushed.

I've had Amsteel Blue on a winch for 4 years, used often by recreational standards (including the rigors of a two-and-a-half year expedition in a truck with an all-up weight of close to 5 tons). When I sold it, the line was faded, but otherwise excellent. I did look after it well. Myself, I'd never use steel again by preference.

I'm not stuck on any brand in particular, especially not having tried most of them. I expect I'll get shot down for saying this, but I don't think there's lot to choose between them, but check the specifications vs. price before you buy, because it can look suspiciously like polypropylene!

Don't fill the drum, btw. When you're in a tight spot, you don't want to have the additional problem of an overfull drum. It's better to carry extra rope as an extension, which can be a heavier gauge, so it can be used in front of the snatch block.

HTH,

Michael...

 

[Jeep]

Comments taken respectfully Michael, thanks.

After 23 years of off roading, competing and winning, and selling off road parts I have seen more broken rope than cable....and rope is kind of new. I can see how rope can hold out as well as you have experienced because of the care you give it and that is critical with rope. I have just been in too many heavy winching situations where rope has failed. We may have completely different conditions from what you have experienced that would have an effect one way or the other too. Care and knowledge of the product are definite factors in its lifespan, just sometimes there is not the time factors to properly rig up and that is where I think a cable is a better choice.

Even with cable I like to rig properly and take all precautions, and I'll change out a cable if it is starting to get beat up because it does get crushed and kinked sometimes. There are definitely pros and cons to both products.

Cheers,
Mark.

 

[wADVr]

I have been wanting to "upgrade" to synthetic line for a few years now and just cant bring myself to do it. Having been in more than one situation where lives were hanging by the winch line, I just cant convert. im not sure where you all wheel and need winch assist but for me I see mud, tight trees, sharp rocks, constant moisture..alot of places where one chaffing sleeve wont do. I have seen steam roll off a winchline being snowed on, had the whole front end submerged in mud and been suspended with this same line on one single trip. Battling nightfall and several rigs each needing recovery, chaffing sleeves and making sure everything is perfect unfortunately slips from time to time.
I guess my point is it really is a personal decision based on your terrain, conditions and how perfect you and your winch-********** handle the line. If I were to convert, heat and abrasive resistance would be one of my highest priorities.

 

[bigreen505]

Don't worry about moisture as all of these lines are repurposed from the sailing world, however mud is not good for them. Synthetic lines, particularly any dyneema based line (Amsteel, et al) achieve high breaking strength in two ways: first the fibers are very strong. Second they are very slippery and can move over one another without friction or chaffing as the line constricts under tension. Anyone with splicing experience can attest that it is very difficult to cut the line, but very easy to cut individual strands. As mud works its way into the line, you are injecting a gritty substance into a structure designed to be friction free. It is very common for cordage manufacturers to blend dyneema with a stronger line to improve breaking strength because the dyneema will reduce internal line friction, especially at high percentages of breaking strength.

While a steel cable can clearly handle more chaffing than a synthetic line, dyneema can take a lot more than you might think.

 

[michaelgroves]

Having been in more than one situation where lives were hanging by the winch line, I just cant convert. ... ... and been suspended with this same line on one single trip.

I'm actually not a believer in being safe at all costs, else I'd never leave home, but I will say this - consumer winches and all the consumer-market rigging that goes with them are not designed to have lives depending on them. Bad accidents are most likely when you winch in a hurry, work in the dark, lift things with the winch and generally take short cuts.

This point in itself is not really germane to the steel vs synthetic debate, other than to say that keeping the risks of injury to a minimum (from all causes, including line failure) would generally be a point in favour of synthetic over steel.

 

[TxRider]

Anyone have anything to say about fiber core vs wire core cable?

I've read that the original 7/16" cable used on my winch was 6x19 fiber core and the fiber core would hold oil inside to prevent rusting or some such, and others say to use 175ft of 1/2" 6x37 wire core cable for flexibility?

I don't know enough about different cables yet, but I do know the one I have now has a former kink in it about halfway through the spool. I unspooled it all as the previous owner had somehow kinked it and wrapped it backwards from half spool on, and he has a 20' leader chain he also wrapped up into a knot around the spool I had to get untangled. I'm afraid that kink is going to make a weak spot on the cable.

 

[ntsqd]

No experience with different cables, but that kink does want to be gone at first opportunity.

I would go so far as to say that unless you know the line has never been un-spooled, you should consider the cable in need of replacement when buying a used winch. It's very much like buying a used climbing rope. How many leader falls did it take b4 you got it?

 

[TxRider]

Yeah I know it needs replacing, I just have to figure out what I want to replace it with. It's big ols Braden Lu4 PTO drive winch, WWII-Vietnam military style that the military originally used the 7/16 fiber core cable on from what I hear. Dunno if I can even get that.

That and some guys that sound like they know a thing or two are saying go with 1/2" cable instead. That it'll take 175' of 1/2" on the spool and the wire core 1/2" is better...

I hear the army uses synthetic winch rope nowadays though.

I straightened the kink out of the cable that came on it the best I could when I unspooled the whole drum and rewrapped it, but I came away thinking I really need a new cable.

 

[ntsqd]

One minus in going to synthetic on a winch that has seen hard work with steel would be detailing the spool etc. to be free of burrs, sharps, & what-not.

 

[Bongo Boy]

If you double the pulling power, you will need the extra strength. That is at least how I justified the 3/8 line for my Bellview 5687.

I'm thinking there's something wrong here. Assuming the winch can put 8000 lbs on the winch line, that' how much load it can put on the winch line. Run the line around a snatch block, and there's still 8000 lbs load on the winch line--it's just that there's two winch lines attached to the rig. The line holding the snatch block sees 16,000 lbs and the rig sees 16,000 lbs, but each end of the winch line (and every location of that line) still sees 8000 lbs

 

[p1michaud]

Exactly!

I'm thinking there's something wrong here. Assuming the winch can put 8000 lbs on the winch line, that' how much load it can put on the winch line. Run the line around a snatch block, and there's still 8000 lbs load on the winch line--it's just that there's two winch lines attached to the rig. The line holding the snatch block sees 16,000 lbs and the rig sees 16,000 lbs, but each end of the winch line (and every location of that line) still sees 8000 lbs

That is exactly what I was trying to say in my previous post #16. I just used more words and no diagram. Pictures are worth 1000 words they say...
That being said, going from a 5/15" rope to a 3/8" rope buys you additional margin (i.e. go from 13 700 lbs to 20 400 lbs according to the Rock Stomper page). That is never a bad thing!

Cheers,
P

 

[ntsqd]

It is also what I said in post #12, but again in words only & no image. Every new leg of the line adds what ever the tension on the line is to the pull on the object, but the tension in the line itself is maxed out at what the winch can pull.

IMHO a little overkill is usually a good thing, but excessive overkill is just extra weight.