what about rei

[cnynrat]

Yes, and many of us are still very pleased we have national parks, protected wilderness areas and other protected lands. I have yet to even scratch the surface of what's available to me with or without wheels. There's ample land for both wheeled, and non-wheeled travel.

I think most everyone here is pleased that we have national parks and protected wilderness areas. I know I am.

I think you fail to take account of the long term trends and project them forward into the future. Should they achieve their objectives many of the referenced organizations would continue to close gates pretty much forever. I know you don't agree with that assessment, but that's the root of the disagreement between people such as yourself and others who chose not to spend their hard earned money with businesses such as REI.

When the debate is cast in stark black and white terms - if you are against these organizations then you must be against national parks and wilderness - you only serve to harden the divide that exists.

 

[highdesertranger]

well were to start. i mentioned rei because they were talked about so much as others have said there are many more. me i'm a redneck hippy. i was a member of the sierra club and greenpeace, because when i was younger i wanted to save the world too. i also have a degree in enviormental science. however it started to become apparrent that many of these groups care more about money than the enviorment. as soon as they get thier way they find some new endangered this or that and btw way they need more money to save it. i have also noticed that they use allot of junk science and play on peoples emotions rather than using scientific methods to come to allot of thier conclusions. i have seen this first hand and personal. don't get me wrong i love our national parks but the whole country can't be a national park. without logging, agirculture, and mining were would we be. remember everything we use is mined or grown. ok i'll stop ranting. highdesertranger

 

[Christophe Noel]

I guess I'll just be one of the few, that will go on record as saying that while I'm an overlander, I am a staunch advocate of our wild places. Landscapes that are not accessible by wheels now, should probably never be scarred with roads. Landscapes riddled with roads are likely damage done. Leave the roads.

I refuse to be the overlander who thinks the world should be wheel-accessible. That's crap.

 

[TangoBlue]

I guess I'll just be one of the few, that will go on record as saying that while I'm an overlander, I am a staunch advocate of our wild places. Landscapes that are not accessible by wheels now, should probably never be scarred with roads. Landscapes riddled with roads are likely damage done. Leave the roads.

I refuse to be the overlander who thinks the world should be wheel-accessible. That's crap.

Wow... though I'd never see the day I'd agree with that hippie Flounder.

 

[TexasTJ]

I guess I'll just be one of the few, that will go on record as saying that while I'm an overlander, I am a staunch advocate of our wild places. Landscapes that are not accessible by wheels now, should probably never be scarred with roads. Landscapes riddled with roads are likely damage done. Leave the roads.

I refuse to be the overlander who thinks the world should be wheel-accessible. That's crap.

Amen!

 

[keezer37]

well, i'm glad you think everyone should enjoy ohv's in an off road park. let me know when you find a park with enough land to "expedition" in. remember, this sight is for those of us that enjoy four wheeling, hiking, biking, two wheeling for days with no contact. you will never get that in a park. besides....once they shut public land down, do you really think they won't try to stop wheeling on private land too?

I don't think everyone should. Read my statement again. Your last statement is a fallacy.

I too support Tread Lightly. However, Tread Lightly is not only about responsible and ethical use of our outdoor resource. The organization is also a champion of shared and equal access. Your comments come across with a decidedly anti-OHV tone.

To insinuate that everyone offroading is destroying god's creation is disingenuous. I've seen public land trashed by irresponsible people from every single niche group you can imagine. The people that are heavily involved in an outdoor community or club, regardless of the type, are not often the ones destroying things. The fault more often lies with the uneducated casual public land user (both motorized and non).

Public land should be enjoyed by everyone, not just those that want to walk. That's right, you have to share with ATV riders, equestrian enthusiasts, 4x4 people, mountain bikers, shooters and hikers. Do I like riding through horse ********? No. But I'll defend their right to use the same land I enjoy hiking, ATVing and Jeeping on because that's the fair thing to do.

Tread lightly as a statement, not the organization. Tread lightly as what I used to know as, "leave no trace". I'm not insinuating that everyone. Comparing God's great creation to man's mess is written as such for literary affect, not technical accuracy.

I agree with your third statement. We do have to share. I prefer separation for the reason below.

not even just a little bit?

Okay yes, a little bit. But I do like to engage as many of the senses in the outdoor experience as possible. Staying behind the wheel limits this experience. The sound of machinery limits this experience. While I do not mind roads, trails or the occasional tracks through the landscape, I do mind deep ruts and scarred rock. These are the folks that should be penned.

 

[cnynrat]

I guess I'll just be one of the few, that will go on record as saying that while I'm an overlander, I am a staunch advocate of our wild places. Landscapes that are not accessible by wheels now, should probably never be scarred with roads. Landscapes riddled with roads are likely damage done. Leave the roads.

I refuse to be the overlander who thinks the world should be wheel-accessible. That's crap.

I think the overwhelming majority of folks here on ExPo would agree with this simple proposition: 1) No new roads in wilderness areas, 2) Leave existing roads in place and maintain access for "off-road" vehicles 3) "Off road" vehicle travel to be limited to those existing roads except in designated "off-road" parks or certain unique areas (thinking about places like Pismo dunes, Glamis, etc). Certainly there is room for compromise around this position based on the specifics of a given area, but as a general starting point I'm completely in agreement with it.

The problem here is that I don't believe for a minute that the REI's and Patagonia's of the world or the organizations they support such as the Sierra Club or SUWA would agree to that proposition. Not even close. We continue to see road closures take place in our local area on an ongoing basis. Many existing roads are up for closure right now in the Big Bear area, some of which would eliminate access to some favorite camping spots that people have been using for decades, if not longer.

The long term trend is pretty clear: we continue to set more and more land aside as wilderness resulting in more and more road closures. In the real world we don't see maintenance of the status quo. In my opinion I don't think the environmental movement will ever be satisfied, there will always be another precious and unique area to close down. They will continue to use the Endangered Species Act as a tool to shut down more and more areas to human travel. There are some 1000 acres of prime hiking territory in the local mountains here in SoCal that have been closed to all human entry since 2005 supposedly to protect a frog species. Note, I'm not talking about off road travel, I am talking about closed to all human entry.

When you chose to paint me as someone who thinks the world should be "wheel-accessible" you are sadly off base.

 

[camper357]

Show me these lands that have never had roads. I'm not saying we need roads everywhere, but if you think you are keeping places wild you are wrong. It is about turning back the clock and limiting access to those who have the time to hike.

 

[Ramjet]

:lurk: This is getting good.

 

[expedition4x4]

Additionally not everyone has the physical abilities to hike and are more dependent upon a vehicle to enjoy our public lands. I have witness plenty of new "trails" cut thru pristine nature by hikers and mountainbikers all the whike they are lobbying to remove our access to public lands...

 

[Stumpalump]

No new roads???? They shut down roads and trails constantly so at what point will be stuck in an off road park? So how about for every two miles closed lets open 1 mile of new ones?

 

[Co-opski]

Ummmmmm REI right? Long hair check. Patagonia bibs check, trucks and ohvs check, VW bus check, granola check, bear bacon check, REI member check. aaaaaaaaaahh what are ye'all yappin about. Stinkin hippies. :elkgrin:

 

[pluton]

One advantage of buying from REI is that everything they sell is 'satisfaction guaranteed' forever. Also, if you are a member, you get 10% of what you spend returned to you at the end of the year. Of course, most things they sell are at list price, which is the normal case in their industry.
As for the OHV access vs. wilderness thing, I think that we've got a problematic balance right now between the wilderness fanatics advocating total land closure as punishment for our species' environmental transgressions, and the yahoos and morons who would be fully content to turn any area into a garbage can.

 

[Sawyer]

I guess I'll just be one of the few, that will go on record as saying that while I'm an overlander, I am a staunch advocate of our wild places. Landscapes that are not accessible by wheels now, should probably never be scarred with roads. Landscapes riddled with roads are likely damage done. Leave the roads.

I refuse to be the overlander who thinks the world should be wheel-accessible. That's crap.

Sort of agree here... But here is where my view is different. Landscapes riddled with roads are likely damage done. I do feel it is irresponsible of us as off road travelers (be it 4wheeler, off-roader, overlander, expedition-er...whatever you choose to call yourself) to not be good stewards of the land. If it is truly riddled with roads, we have a responsibility to ourselves and to our land to close some of those roads to allow the ecosystem to heal and recover so that the beauty of the land is preserved. Now dont take it that I am saying we should close down mass areas. I am thinking about when I was a young boy scout and would do trail maintenance on local hiking trails. We were taught the importance of remaining on the trail. Not making short cuts and the like due to the damage that is caused by traffic and erosion. We would often attempt to repair these side trails and short cuts in the trail. I think the same should be done in these areas that are riddled with roads. We should as good stewards make thought out plans of these areas that allow equal access to the places we want to go and make good effort to close the trivial roads that are not necessary.... but that is way easier said than done.

As far as the Sierra club, rei, etc. We as a community always complain and point to them as the enemy. But, I dont understand why we dont join them????? I mean if every person that uses our land by either suv, truck, 4wheeler, motorcycle, etc. joined, we would have a much greater voice in finding equal and shared land use while being a good steward of the land. I mean take the Sierra Club for example... the coordination and oversight is provided by an elected volunteer Executive Committee. Now imagine if there was a large population of us that wheel voting in and for those "elected volunteer executive commitees?.... I think we would find them less of an enemy and more of a partner...

 

[Mel.Specs]

Ummmmmm REI right? Long hair check. Patagonia bibs check, trucks and ohvs check, VW bus check, granola check, bear bacon check, REI member check. aaaaaaaaaahh what are ye'all yappin about. Stinkin hippies. :elkgrin:

I don't think a hippie drives this bus. This was the Magpul booth at the Shot Show last week.