Toyo Open Country Tires

[Redline]

Pending 'Tire Pull' Test

After a 'road-force' test, rebalance, and rotation a few days ago, the Toyo MTs still pull to the right on 4Runner while the Maxxis Bighorns and Coopers STs do not. I assume the fancy software for the the Hunter balancer that Hoser suggests I locate could help diagnose or cure the problem, but the dealer where I purchased the tires doesn't have the software/ability and I'm not going to pay another retailer to fix a problem that is covered under warranty from a different company.

Today I was going to drop off my Toyota TRD tires/wheels at my tire dealer (a Les Schwab) and have the Toyo MTs replaced under warranty. They are essentially new with only 1,357-miles on them and 18/32+ of tread. They were going to make the swap, but before I have them replace four almost new tires for another set we are going to try something else.

Friday we are going to pull the Toyo MT 255s from my Toyota wheels and mount, balance, road-force them on the stock F350 wheels to see if they pull on the F350. If they do, I'll get a new set of 255s anyway. If there’s no 'radial tire pull' on the F350 then I will have to decide if I don't mind keeping them on the F350.

Because of the very firm/stiff construction of these Toyo MTs (which I knew about from prior experience with Toyo MTs) I was already considering swapping the tires from the TRD wheels to the F350. The other sets of 255/85R16 D-range tires I have all ride softer/better and are more flexible which I prefer, particularly on my nice, smooth Crawlin' 4Runner. Currently I have a set of very aggressive and noisy 285/75s on the F350 that I want to remove anyway. Depending on the results of the tire swapping test on Friday, I may just get a few sets of tires moved to different wheels, something that would have cost be over $100.00 if I was paying for the work.

I have don't really have a long history of sidewall failures or tread punctures that justify the extreme construction of the Toyo MTs. I had a sidewall puncture that was repairable in 1994 on a ‘93 Dodge/Cummins W350 with the stock Michelin all-terrain LT235/85R16E tires. More recently within the past five years I have had a couple of sidewall problems on the F350. One sidewall split/separation after 47,000-miles, and another puncture at the edge of the tread/sidewall, both with different sets of Multi-Mile TXRs in 255/85R16D (a tire I used to love but Les Schwab no longer sells, that’s probably not really rugged enough for the F350 anyway). Though the 4Runner is my primary off-highway vehicle, the F350 is my hunting truck, which usually pulls a heavy travel trailer into the Nevada outback, then runs around solo with the air drained from the tires. The truck is heavy and gets used, so much so that I have been considering adding a rear locker.

New Toyo LT255/85R16 causing tire pull

I knew when I purchased my new Toyo MT 255/85R16 tires that one feature I didn't care for was the firm ride. These tires are super rugged, 7-ply tread and 3-ply sidewalls, all quite stiff, more so than other E-range tires. I prefer a softer, more flexible tire on and off-highway. But tough tires have their positives and I like the relatively quiet tread and overall quality.

I have made recent changes to my gearing (4.88s) and upper A-Arms/ball joints that could have been causing the pulling to the right I have been experiencing. I was blaming the gears/torque steer. Wrong. It was my Toyo MT tires.

Not looking to improve the pulling to the right, a few days a go I did a tire rotation with the Toyos because they were scrubbed unevenly for several miles driving to the alignment shop after new A-Arms were installed. I did my normal, front tires crossed to the rear & rears straight forward on the same side rotation. Car still pulled to the right but I didn't suspect the tires so no improvement was expected.

Then I decided I wanted to experience the softer sidewall of one of my other sets of tires, both on and off-highway. We are leaving on a camping trip on Monday and I had planned to put the Toyos to the test, but... I put my Maxxis Bighorn MTs on and the ride over small bumps was again much better, even plush compared to the Toyos. And the pulling to the right was GONE. The car drives excellent, just like the perfect/recent alignment specs suggest it should.

It will take some more diagnosing in a few weeks to find the problem, which I suspect is one bad/heavy tire. When/if I isolate the tire and problem I can have it replaced, but the Maxxis Bighorns again look good. The Bighorns are louder, but offer good grip for the $$$, about $100.00 less per tire.

 

[Redline]

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=12

Using the procedure detailed in the link from the Tire Rack I set out hoping to isolate the slight pulling to the right on my 4Runner when the 255/85 Toyo MTs are mounted. Results: "If the pulling tire does not change, the problem is not tire related. The car should be checked for possible misalignment or suspension wear." I'm not able to isolate the problem moving the tires around as directed, therefore it is not a tire problem according to the Tire Rack's technical page on tire pulling. Maybe.

I accept that the Tire Rack knows what they are talking about, but I know that the 4Runner is not out of alignment nor is the suspension worn. Though it took me a while to figure out the pulling was coming from the tires, it has existed for a couple months since I purchased the Toyo MTs in LT255/85R16. The pulling has been present both before and after a few front end alignments AND with both my previous All Pro Off-Road Uni-Ball A-arms and the current Light Racing upper A-arms. Most importantly, the car doesn't pull to the right when my set of Maxxis Bighorns or Maxxis Bravo ATs are mounted. All these tires are LT255/85R16, the only difference is that the Toyos are load-range-E not D.

Is it possible that for some strange reason the high quality and generally excellent Toyo MTs don't like this 4x4 or the way it is set up? I think so. I could return the tires, or have them replaced, but after doing the side to side rotations trying to locate/isolate the tire pulling, I'm pretty sure the tires are not necessarily "defective". I'm leaning toward removing the Open Country MTs from the Toyota TRD wheels and mounting them on my 1996 F350 on the stock aluminum wheels. They would be great tires for the big truck and if they don't cause any pulling on the truck it will confirm my suspicion that there is some strange voodoo going on regarding these treads and the 4Runner.

 

[slooowr6]

This is better than reading detective novel.

Last time I brought my truck to the alignment shop, after all is done the tech explain to me that why one of the number, can't remember which, is different is because it compensate for the road crown, not sure if I get the term correct, so the truck does not pull to one side when driving on normal surface road that has the center higher for drainage. Could it be the Toyo MT is so sensitive and you alignment shop did the same thing and this cause the tire pull? Just a wild guess.

 

[Redline]

You know I did have a sentence that stated that I was working late into the dark scary night trying to fight the evil forces...

What you are talking about is having more caster on one side than the other to help compensate for the crown of the road. Good point. My alignment is currently set-up in this manner, more caster on the right than the left to keep it going straight. The settings seem to work with Bighorns, but not this set of Toyo MTs ☹

 

[ashooter]

You know I did have a sentence that stated that I was working late into the dark scary night trying to fight the evil forces...

What you are talking about is having more caster on one side than the other to help compensate for the crown of the road....

So to translate into English for us dummies: What you mean is that the truck body rides a little bit lower on the driver's side, so it is theoretically level when on the road surface, where the center of the road is higher than the shoulder?

Is that correct, or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Redline]

I believe in different parts of the country the roads often sometimes crowned for drainage differently. Around here the roads are typically lower on the passenger side, meaning they are crowned/higher in the center of the roadway. The crown of the roadway can cause a vehicle to follow the downhill slope (crown) of the road even when everything else is correct/normal and one is trying to drive straight. The car can drive/pull/fall to one side.

In the case of my 4Runner, and where the roads here are generally higher in the center/median area, my current alignment settings are 3.4-degrees of caster on the left (driver's) and 3.7-degrees of caster on the right. This is to make the car go straight on a crowned road without having to use steering correction.

 

[jim65wagon]

Can you put your wheels and tires on someoneelses Toyota to see if their vehicle pulls with the Toyos?

 

[Redline]

Yes Sir, post 32

Edit... I didn't read your post well, another Toyota you say, not just another vehicle... possible, but I didn't plan for it today.

Is it possible that for some strange reason the high quality and generally excellent Toyo MTs don't like this 4x4 or the way it is set up? I think so. I could return the tires, or have them replaced, but after doing the side to side rotations trying to locate/isolate the tire pulling, I'm pretty sure the tires are not necessarily "defective". I'm leaning toward removing the Open Country MTs from the Toyota TRD wheels and mounting them on my 1996 F350 on the stock aluminum wheels. They would be great tires for the big truck and if they don't cause any pulling on the truck it will confirm my suspicion that there is some strange voodoo going on regarding these treads and the 4Runner.

 

[ashooter]

...my current alignment settings are 3.4-degrees of caster on the left (driver's) and 3.7-degrees of caster on the right...

All I know about "caster" is that if you're lifting a 'Cruiser you have to use "caster correction bushings"...

Exactly what the heck is caster???

 

[Redline]

I don't want to dilute this tread too much with talk about alignment settings, this info can be found in other threads and on the web. Here are a couple links.

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75055

http://www.vrperformance.com/mt/2006/09/camber_and_caster_explained_1.html

All I know about "caster" is that if you're lifting a 'Cruiser you have to use "caster correction bushings"...

Exactly what the heck is caster???

 

[ginericLC]

What about weight? I mean the Toyos are a pretty heavy tire and maybe on the lighter vehicle it is causing you problems.

I ran the Toyo MT 315/75/16s on my 80 series. There are two downsides to these tires: Weight and Expense. The weight is what makes them a great tire. It is what keeps them from getting punctures and sidewall failure. On the plus side my experiences and others who have had the tires have been extremely positive on the balancing. I had no more than 2 ounces on any of my tires and the least was a 1/2 ounce. It is possible you got a defective tire or tires, or some that were stored too long or improperly.

I hope you get it straightened out.

 

[ashooter]

I don't want to dilute this tread too much with talk about alignment settings, this info can be found in other threads and on the web. Here are a couple links.

http://www.v6performance.net/forums/showthread.php?t=75055

http://www.vrperformance.com/mt/2006/09/camber_and_caster_explained_1.html

So I was "sort of right"... This would make the truck ride just slightly lower on the driver's side. Also, if you take into account the weight and construction of the tire (stiffness), it makes sense that they could possibly be causing the slight pull even if you rotate a different tire into the PS-front position.

Interesting.... Who-da thunk it?

We'll see what they do on my FJ80. (If my tire guy can get 'em.)

 

[Redline]

Pulling Tires Mounted on F350

First, I must make it clear that my old F350 is not a good vehicle on which to evaluate pulling tires. Currently it needs a new steering gear (again), which is worn and sloppy with excessive play. The very aggressive tires I removed were badly pulling to the right. I live in a windy area, so afternoon drives often make it hard to determine the wind is pushing, pulling, or if the tires are pulling to one side, and this truck has always seemed to need some slight steering input to counteract the crown of the road.

Compared to the tires I removed, the Toyos are pulling little if at all. While swapping the Toyo MTs from the Toyota TRD wheels to the F350 one of the four tires could not be properly balanced. The balance machine asked for lots of wight (about 7-8 ounces) and after some of the weight was added to one side of the wheel and the wheel was spun again to check before adding the other weight, the machine asked for much more weight. This tire was spun 180-degrees on the wheel, but when put back on the balancer exhibited the same behavior. This tire was adjusted out/replaced with a new tire. It's possible that this one tire was at least part of the problem on the Toyota, even though the side-to-side rotations I did looking for a problem didn't reveal 'a bad tire' according to the tire rack test guidelines, and this balancing problem didn't show up last week when the tires were rebalanced.

The other three tires all balanced fine and the Centramatic continuous wheel balancers I have on the truck are still doing their magic, balance will never be an issue on the F350 with any good tire.

I might still have some slight pulling but again, the test vehicle is sloppy. In general it seems okay. Because the truck is driven very little it will be a while before I wear another 1/32 of tread off and loose my free replacement warranty ☺ I would like to replace the steering gear and have an alignment done in the next couple months to more completely evaluate the tires. They sure do look perfect on the F350 and there is nothing like a set of 255/85s on my one-ton on the stock 7-inch aluminum wheels. Ready for wood cutting and hunting season.

 

[Redline]

No Tire Pull

Last night I picked up the old F350 from a local shop after having some front end work done. I added a remanufactured Ford steering gear, caster/camber bushings, panhard-bar bushings, and it was aligned. The truck drives better than it has in years and the Toyo LT255/85R16s are happy. Though I only drove about 20-miles, the truck seems to go straight and true down the highway with no obvious pulling to one side or the other.

The tires are not pulling. Prior issues with these tires on my 4Runner were likely vehicle specific.

 

[hoser]

Redline,

When the shop balanced your Toyo tires on the TRD wheels, did they NOT use a Haweka Adapter on the balance machine?

There is a TSB from Toyota:

(SU002-96) Wheel Balance Adapter Kit

"9/2/1996 - All Toyota Models. To improve the accuracy of Dynamic Off–Car wheel balancing on all OEM Toyota five and six lug wheels, a precision wheel adapter kit must be used. For the greatest accuracy and repeatability, Toyota recommends using the Haweka adapter kit available through the Toyota Approved Dealer Equipment catalog. The kit consists of a precision ground centering cone for truck alloy wheels and a flange plate."

Some more info here too:
http://4runners.org/writeups/haweka/index.html