Synthetic winch lines

[dust devil]

I'm pretty sure it isn't much of a point, either, which is why I would not buy one just to do independent testing. I already have lots of plasma on hand, enough to last years at the current rate.

And they float not because they are water repellent, but because their molecular density is less than that of water.

 

[superpowerdave]

Dust Devil-

Not to get off topic (or maybe I'm not, can't be too sure) but where are you buying synthetic line by the roll? With the number of winches in the stable and the number of friends who have a strong desire to go synthetic but not the pockets, I've always wondered if buying a roll wouldn't be more cost effective but hadn't really seen it for sale by the roll.

Any enlightenment?

 

[xcmountain80]

I'm pretty sure it isn't much of a point, either, which is why I would not buy one just to do independent testing. I already have lots of plasma on hand, enough to last years at the current rate.

And they float not because they are water repellent, but because their molecular density is less than that of water.

Well you just have all the answers don't you. Enjoy your rope and I'll enjoy mine, dirt or no dirt and all.

Aaron

 

[xcmountain80]

Dust Devil-

Not to get off topic (or maybe I'm not, can't be too sure) but where are you buying synthetic line by the roll? With the number of winches in the stable and the number of friends who have a strong desire to go synthetic but not the pockets, I've always wondered if buying a roll wouldn't be more cost effective but hadn't really seen it for sale by the roll.

Any enlightenment?

Oh that would be just fantastic, can you imagine a group buy (still need misc parts) this would be most cost effective of course assuming the hooks, shackles, thimbles and what not didn't cost a fortune.

Aaron

 

[ntsqd]

Dust and mud will infiltrate any stranded line, with or without the extra cover. Because the braided sleeve is as tight as it is, getting dirt back out would be problematic.

I haven't yet seen a knotted repair in synthetic line hold for more than a few seconds. Granted most folks don't know how to tie knots, but still they tend to fail almost immediately no matter who ties them. I suppose one might remove the sleeve for several feet on the ends of a damaged line and then splice it back together, but as with any line spliced after failure, I would toss it once I got home.

My own testing found that no knot (rock climbing, etc.) known to me would hold. The failures were always at the first sharp bend in the line, and the characteristic trait was that the line looked melted. My theory is that a constricting sharp bend localizes the stress which turns into heat and fails the line.

A simple sideways weave back and forth through the line 3 plus times did hold and allow the line to fail in more random locations rather than exclusively at the knot.

Amsteel Blue comes on 600 foot spools. Try talking to Scott Ellinger at Rockstomper about buying a spool.

 

[paulj]

Here's a post about that knot on the Masterpull line - 1st one on the 2nd page

http://www.naxja.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1000537&page=2

 

[dust devil]

Well you just have all the answers don't you. Enjoy your rope and I'll enjoy mine, dirt or no dirt and all.

Aaron

Sorry for having opinions. As for having all the answers, no. But a lot of them, yes. All based on a lifetime of driving off road, using the equipment associated with off roading, and paying attention.

Several years ago I was gearing up for off road competition and was offered a rope product identical to the one we are discussing here, although from a different supplier. I rejected it for several reasons, all having to do with the sleeve and the build parameters that go along with it, i.e., the knot thing and the inability to weave the rope, availability of custom lengths and how much trouble it was to get ropes built to my specs, the actual outer diameter of the line in spite of the 3/8ths rating which is larger due to the additional sleeve, which adds nothing to the burst strength but does reduce the drum capacity foot-for-foot compared to basic 12-strand line, the fact that the sleeve has a far different stretch rating than the underlying line, and the tendency of covered line to hold mud under the sleeve where you could not see it or deal with it.

I am not suggesting one should not use this type of line, rather I was discussing its attributes based on past experience. Take any or all of it for what it is worth. If you don't use your winch very often but live in sun country, or never use it in mud, or really need an abrasion sleeve to survive where you drive, you might find a covered line to be just the thing.

 

[dust devil]

Here's a post about that knot on the Masterpull line - 1st one on the 2nd page

http://www.naxja.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1000537&page=2

I notice he didn't answer the question posed regarding loss of line strength as knotted, but am not surprised by this. Rope manufacturers spend major money on equipment to test lines to destruction with precision. Most folks, especially retailers, can't afford these devices. Suffice to say that the guy's suggestion that the knot likely reduces the strength of the winch line below the 10 percent reduction caused by splicing the same basic line is probably correct. The question is how much below. My guess is that no one really knows. On the other hand, even with the strength degraded because of the knot, the line is still stronger than your average winch by a factor of 2.

 

[xcmountain80]

Sorry for having opinions. As for having all the answers, no. But a lot of them, yes. All based on a lifetime of driving off road, using the equipment associated with off roading, and paying attention.

Several years ago I was gearing up for off road competition and was offered a rope product identical to the one we are discussing here, although from a different supplier. I rejected it for several reasons, all having to do with the sleeve and the build parameters that go along with it, i.e., the knot thing and the inability to weave the rope, availability of custom lengths and how much trouble it was to get ropes built to my specs, the actual outer diameter of the line in spite of the 3/8ths rating which is larger due to the additional sleeve, which adds nothing to the burst strength but does reduce the drum capacity foot-for-foot compared to basic 12-strand line, the fact that the sleeve has a far different stretch rating than the underlying line, and the tendency of covered line to hold mud under the sleeve where you could not see it or deal with it.

I am not suggesting one should not use this type of line, rather I was discussing its attributes based on past experience. Take any or all of it for what it is worth. If you don't use your winch very often but live in sun country, or never use it in mud, or really need an abrasion sleeve to survive where you drive, you might find a covered line to be just the thing.

Please never apologize for having an opinion no matter which side it falls on. I understand better what you saying in the 2nd paragraph that in previous posts. Some may scorn you for having an posting an opinion but it won't be me. I found it informative at he very least.

Aaron

 

[ntsqd]

I notice he didn't answer the question posed regarding loss of line strength as knotted, but am not surprised by this. Rope manufacturers spend major money on equipment to test lines to destruction with precision. Most folks, especially retailers, can't afford these devices. Suffice to say that the guy's suggestion that the knot likely reduces the strength of the winch line below the 10 percent reduction caused by splicing the same basic line is probably correct. The question is how much below. My guess is that no one really knows. On the other hand, even with the strength degraded because of the knot, the line is still stronger than your average winch by a factor of 2.

When I executed my test to failure of every knot that I knew of or could find in knot books that appeared to be appropriate I came to the conclusion that NO knot is strong enough. Everyone of them failed well below where the splices failed.

For reference I was testing Amsteel, not Amsteel Blue, and in the 1/4" size. The premise being that the knots would scale with the line size & strength and offer proportional strength. And that the pulls wouldn't have to get outrageous before the line or the knot or the splice failed. We were pulling on it with a Warn 8274 and used a 2WD GM CrewCab SRW (in Park, p-brake set, block of wood at rear of RR tire). That 1/4" line did move the CC several times before failing.

 

[dust devil]

When I executed my test to failure of every knot that I knew of or could find in knot books that appeared to be appropriate I came to the conclusion that NO knot is strong enough. Everyone of them failed well below where the splices failed.

For reference I was testing Amsteel, not Amsteel Blue, and in the 1/4" size. The premise being that the knots would scale with the line size & strength and offer proportional strength. And that the pulls wouldn't have to get outrageous before the line or the knot or the splice failed. We were pulling on it with a Warn 8274 and used a 2WD GM CrewCab SRW (in Park, p-brake set, block of wood at rear of RR tire). That 1/4" line did move the CC several times before failing.

I would expect a scaled down test to at least give you an answer in relative terms that was valid for larger lines.

Considering that even Master Pull wants to find a way to splice rather than knot their XD line, no further speculation is needed as far as I can see.

 

[ntsqd]

snip......
I would expect a scaled down test to at least give you an answer in relative terms that was valid for larger lines.

Lacking any means to realistically test line tension up to the point of failure, that is all that I was looking for. In a previous post somewhere around here I described in detail the quick splice method that did work and would be suitable for an emergency field repair. It probably will even spool onto the winch drum, but that wasn't tested.

 

[lowenbrau]

Just a data point. My 5/16 Amsteel was purchased eight years ago as a 600 foot roll. It is much cheaper if you don't get the cover, loops etc. I always planned to cover the last forty feet or so in tubular webbing but never got around to it. As a result it is now very bleached and UV damaged, all of my winching is in mud so it is undoubtedly full of abrasives to the core. My winch can generate more force than 5/16 wire rope can withstand so the possibility of breaking the rope is always there bit I've only managed to do it twice. Once in the middle on a very had pull with only one full wrap on the drum. The other, a month ago when I spooled in rather than out while the hook was connected to my bumper.

The advantages of synthetic over wire rope are obvious to me. Only from an economics perspective does the metal have an advantage and even then I'd have replaced the wire rope at least a couple of times in the same period. To compare the different synthetics is not so cut and dried. The expensive ones have some very attractive features. For me, when I do it again soon, I'll probably go the same way but buy better thimbles and add a cover for UV protection. Then I'll take the old rope off my BJ74 and put the best looking hundred feet of it on the factory winch of my HDJ81 where it will live out its retirement at the shopping mall.

 

[oltmann]

So far the only bad thing I have found with synthetic line, is you won't want to use steel cable ever again.

I run a short(~60') oversized(5/8") Amsteel Blue line on my jeep's 8274. I use it for a 'suck down' winch(always attached to the front axle). I wanted the larger line so it would stay strong enough for longer as it wears. I wanted the shorter line so that I can pull closer to the drum(~5k lb jeep) I also carry a 50' 3/8" extension line. Here in the PNW it has been 50/50 on using the extension or not.

I bought my lines from a boat rigging company selling odds and ends on ebay. Much more reasonably priced than the packaged winch line products sold at retail. Both lines have eye splices and I used clevis' to rig all pulls.