Reparability vs Reliability Opinions

[nickw]

This is a question I have been wondering about for quite some time. All things being equal, which do you pick? Obviously both is the answer, but generally speaking as one goes up the other goes down. I supposed Diesels are an exception to the rule, the older ones, but not the newer crop of engines with all the wizardry.

Do you pick a series 3 rover that breaks down every 10,000 miles but is almost guaranteed fixable in the field? Maybe better to have the fancy LC 200 with its TPS and complicated wiring, but ‘virtually’ guaranteed 150,000 miles of trouble free use?

It’s easy to say a vehicle has done 1xx,xxx miles with no problems in hindsight, but that is no guarantee at mile 0.

I made it most of the way through Quiet for a Tuesday where TS recounted his experience with his G-wagen and made me start to re-think my decision on my FJ40. I had decided on a modern 5.3L electro-nightmare super reliable well engineered engine. I had to face the what-if scenario, breaking down in the middle of nowhere. Thought a carbed 350, although boring as all get out, may be a better decision due to its reparability. I know Toyota released carbed gas/petrol engines in Africa for years after they stopped here, presumably for reparability concerns.

Any opinions?

 

[762X39]

I always value reliability over repair-ability. I also never value a good warranty over reliability. Stuff breaks in spite of everything but at the end of the day, I don't worry about driving a complicated machine if it has a good track record for being well built and reliable. I am biased towards Ford and Mercedes products but the Toyota stuff seems to be up to snuff as well.I base my opinion on our work fleet (200 plus vehicles over the years) and of course assume that the maintenance regime is top notch.Just my opinion...

 

[RMP&O]

I prefer repairability myself.

Even if the chance is one in a thousand that the newer engine or truck will give you problems in the field, well that is to much for me. I have dealt with it far from home and it can be tough to diagnose the problem on a newer truck. If you have a code reader/ciagnosis tool it is a no brainer but that is an expensive tool to carry around all the time. And just because you know what the problem is doesn't mean you can fix it on a newer vehicle. Not to mention getting the parts to fix it can be difficult or at the least take time and is almost always expensive. The older more simple stuff is much easier to trouble shoot and fix, especially in the field far from home and far from the guys with the parts. The thing is most modern vehicles have a limp mode so when something goes wrong you can still drive.

My feelings about this subject is why I down graded from an 04 Tacoma to a v8 FJ60 LandCruiser. I got the motor I was wanting too which in my mind has the best of both worlds. That be the Ramjet 350, modern fuel injection with a super simply wiring system, a dizzy and very few sensors. I honestly don't think it gets much better then that for a v8 in an overland truck.

Old diesels are super simple to trouble shoot. In fact the simplest of any motor to trouble shoot in the field. An old diesel only needs air, fuel and compression to run. It is almost always fuel delivery that will be the problem in the field on a diesel. IE, clogged filter, leaky line sucking air and so forth. Assuming of course you have power to turn the starter. A lot of old diesels also have a hand primer on the IP so when you do have a fuel issue you can prime the system fast and easy.

In my book, an old diesel is the best for an overland truck. Next best is a simple v8 like the Ramjet. After that I would take an older stock engine, pre-smog junk is best. The 5.3 is a good motor though and I don't think you would be disappointed with it. I am just not a fan of modern engines in an overland truck because all the wiring and sensors can give you a lot of grief. I mean you have a hand full of sensors on just the intake system, any one of which fails and you will have problems. Whereas on a simple diesel or v8 you go like this to trouble shoot; do I have spark/power, do I have air, do I have fuel, do I have compression?

my 2 cents

 

[yohavos]

Does your '78 still have the 2F?


In my mind, that's both. Of course, if the 2F doesn't meet your other needs, it's a moot point I suppose.

 

[phsycle]

Reliability.

It's not like the LC can't be fixed in the field. Maybe a little more work, but I'd rather have 150k of trouble-free miles in between the repairs rather than 10k.

 

[nickw]

Does your '78 still have the 2F?


In my mind, that's both. Of course, if the 2F doesn't meet your other needs, it's a moot point I suppose.

It has an amazing running 2F, starts right up, lots of power. The carb was rebuilt by THE go to guy for cruiser carbs (JimC). The problem is it is arguably MORE complicated due to all the smog crap on it. Forget trouble shooting that mess in the field. Sure I can desmog it, but then you have modified an engine away from its intended purpose which has it's own hosts of problems.

 

[nickw]

I prefer repairability myself.

Even if the chance is one in a thousand that the newer engine or truck will give you problems in the field, well that is to much for me. I have dealt with it far from home and it can be tough to diagnose the problem on a newer truck. If you have a code reader/ciagnosis tool it is a no brainer but that is an expensive tool to carry around all the time. And just because you know what the problem is doesn't mean you can fix it on a newer vehicle. Not to mention getting the parts to fix it can be difficult or at the least take time and is almost always expensive. The older more simple stuff is much easier to trouble shoot and fix, especially in the field far from home and far from the guys with the parts. The thing is most modern vehicles have a limp mode so when something goes wrong you can still drive.

My feelings about this subject is why I down graded from an 04 Tacoma to a v8 FJ60 LandCruiser. I got the motor I was wanting too which in my mind has the best of both worlds. That be the Ramjet 350, modern fuel injection with a super simply wiring system, a dizzy and very few sensors. I honestly don't think it gets much better then that for a v8 in an overland truck.

Old diesels are super simple to trouble shoot. In fact the simplest of any motor to trouble shoot in the field. An old diesel only needs air, fuel and compression to run. It is almost always fuel delivery that will be the problem in the field on a diesel. IE, clogged filter, leaky line sucking air and so forth. Assuming of course you have power to turn the starter. A lot of old diesels also have a hand primer on the IP so when you do have a fuel issue you can prime the system fast and easy.

In my book, an old diesel is the best for an overland truck. Next best is a simple v8 like the Ramjet. After that I would take an older stock engine, pre-smog junk is best. The 5.3 is a good motor though and I don't think you would be disappointed with it. I am just not a fan of modern engines in an overland truck because all the wiring and sensors can give you a lot of grief. I mean you have a hand full of sensors on just the intake system, any one of which fails and you will have problems. Whereas on a simple diesel or v8 you go like this to trouble shoot; do I have spark/power, do I have air, do I have fuel, do I have compression?

my 2 cents

I tend to agree, probability is low but its still there. Same reason aircraft have multiple redundant systems since they can't afford failure (or field fix anything). Redundancy on a carbed/ramjet V8 is a box full of items. Redundancy on a modern engine is a bus with diagnostic tools.

Obviously this is not an issue for 99% of us, just thinking outside of the box for extreme/non ideal situations.

 

[doug720]

It has an amazing running 2F, starts right up, lots of power. The carb was rebuilt by THE go to guy for cruiser carbs (JimC). The problem is it is arguably MORE complicated due to all the smog crap on it. Forget trouble shooting that mess in the field. Sure I can desmog it, but then you have modified an engine away from its intended purpose which has it's own hosts of problems.

I'm sure it runs and starts very well...But, "Lots of Power? Come on, It's still a 2f. LOL Adequate maybe, but not lots!

Just having some fun.

Doug

 

[yohavos]

It has an amazing running 2F, starts right up, lots of power. The carb was rebuilt by THE go to guy for cruiser carbs (JimC). The problem is it is arguably MORE complicated due to all the smog crap on it. Forget trouble shooting that mess in the field. Sure I can desmog it, but then you have modified an engine away from its intended purpose which has it's own hosts of problems.

Personally, I would consider a desmogged 2F much less modified than a swapped in V8. I'm not an amazing mechanic, but if my intent was reliability/ease of repair I would take a factory assembled system from Toyota over a swapped V8 any day.

2F's came without smog equipment all over the world. Legalities aside, I'm willing to bet that someone that knows what they are doing could successfully desmog a 2F back to factory state fairly easily.

It would probably run better, and you would never have to pack SAE sockets in your toolkit.

 

[Schattenjager]

Reputation covers the entire car, generally. Few cars are fondly remembered that have only one thing that's reliable.

Repairability is wide brush. Not everything on a car is going to be easy to work on. Murphy says that is what will break in the field, as you know. Might be easy to do brakes but a pita to chase the last spark plug. May also have easily serviced bits - once you dismantle half the sheet metal, etc. I think you would have to go back to a Willis Jeep to get both.

I like reputation - if earned in the right circles that is. There is less likelihood of needing field repairs, easy or not.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...2F's came without smog equipment all over the world. Legalities aside, I'm willing to bet that someone that knows what they are doing could successfully desmog a 2F back to factory state fairly easily...

My 2F has one vacuum line and that is the vacuum advance from the carb to the dizzy, absolutely zero emissions. It started its life as an 84' 2F but now resides in my 72' FJ40 in front of an H55F. I've had the opportunity to swap just about any motor I've wanted into it, I've owned 4BT's, 3FE's and still have a few 1HZ's kicking around for projects but the 2F doesn't leave me that wanting and its rock solid reliable. I deal with going a little slower over the passes and make up the time on the down hills

JimC is the desmog king, he's got diagrams on Mud that will walk you through the process.If I were to do it all over again I would go 3FE in my 40 or a 60, 11 years ago it wasn't quite the available option it is now and I was stoked to have a carb, odd I know. I've owned several V8 Cruisers for a short-time and done lots of swap work on them... fun, fast, powerful but not that sewing machine smooth that I get from my 2F, different strokes for different folks.

 

[nickw]

I'm sure it runs and starts very well...But, "Lots of Power? Come on, It's still a 2f. LOL Adequate maybe, but not lots!

Just having some fun.

Doug

I should have prefaced it by saying RELATIVELY. I think the 2F is fine, its not a powerhouse but has plenty of get-up and go for a 40 IMO.

 

[nickw]

My 2F has one vacuum line and that is the vacuum advance from the carb to the dizzy, absolutely zero emissions. It started its life as an 84' 2F but now resides in my 72' FJ40 in front of an H55F. I've had the opportunity to swap just about any motor I've wanted into it, I've owned 4BT's, 3FE's and still have a few 1HZ's kicking around for projects but the 2F doesn't leave me that wanting and its rock solid reliable. I deal with going a little slower over the passes and make up the time on the down hills

JimC is the desmog king, he's got diagrams on Mud that will walk you through the process.If I were to do it all over again I would go 3FE in my 40 or a 60, 11 years ago it wasn't quite the available option it is now and I was stoked to have a carb, odd I know. I've owned several V8 Cruisers for a short-time and done lots of swap work on them... fun, fast, powerful but not that sewing machine smooth that I get from my 2F, different strokes for different folks.

Based on my research on mud', JimC does NOT think you should desmog a 2F. From what I could gather he thinks the stock systems should be left in place due to reliability and driveability concerns. If I keep the 2F I was planning on a Trollhole 'fake' Aisin.

Hence my thoughts on a V8, a system that is 100 smog free, can buy new from the GM and all the pieces were engineered to work together and did so reliably for 50+ years. Obviously it can't have 250 hp or your introducing another durability issue downstream. Low HP, low compression and balanced with a quadrajet.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Based on my research on mud', JimC does NOT think you should desmog a 2F. From what I could gather he thinks the stock systems should be left in place due to reliability and driveability concerns...

Interesting, wonder if its merely the liability of people desmogging? He actually build my smog era carb to have zero smog, so I'm running plugs in the head instead of the air pump, zero charcoal canister, etc. He actually helped walk me through the build when I was just a young punk employee of Cruiser Outfitters in the 2000 time frame

The V8 is engineered to work together, but its not engeineered to work in the Toyota Cooling, driveline length, shifter position, etc all need to be dealt with and mitigated during your build. With a standard SWB 40 it gets pretty hard to run an OD transmission and not have an impractical rear driveline. Again, these can and have been solved in clean manners but its far more than buying a long-block SBC and expecting your stock radiator to cool it nicely on hot summer days. Just make sure to plan accordingly, you know the old saying, double the cost estimate and triple the time

 

[nickw]

Interesting, wonder if its merely the liability of people desmogging? He actually build my smog era carb to have zero smog, so I'm running plugs in the head instead of the air pump, zero charcoal canister, etc. He actually helped walk me through the build when I was just a young punk employee of Cruiser Outfitters in the 2000 time frame

The V8 is engineered to work together, but its not engeineered to work in the Toyota Cooling, driveline length, shifter position, etc all need to be dealt with and mitigated during your build. With a standard SWB 40 it gets pretty hard to run an OD transmission and not have an impractical rear driveline. Again, these can and have been solved in clean manners but its far more than buying a long-block SBC and expecting your stock radiator to cool it nicely on hot summer days. Just make sure to plan accordingly, you know the old saying, double the cost estimate and triple the time

Non-stock engine in a rig - big liability I agree.