200 Series questions-~Touareg tdi

[Eric Edwards]

No need to get upset, I was being sarcastic... You know, the whole body-on-frame vs. unibody debate. With that said the Tourag v10 with front and rear lockers looks pretty awesome. However, I stick by my view that the normal Tourag is more like an Acura MDX than a LC200. = D

 

[Viggen]

No need to get upset, I was being sarcastic... You know, the whole body-on-frame vs. unibody debate. With that said the Tourag v10 with front and rear lockers looks pretty awesome. However, I stick by my view that the normal Tourag is more like an Acura MDX than a LC200. = D

And there goes any credibility you might have had. The videos of the Touareg doing its thing are versions that you can get in the States and were stock on street OEM tires. The videos you posted of the 200 being 'superior' are modified with at least different tires and are versions not available to us here. Not really a good comparison. Not at all.


Well, if the OP does decide to get a 200, Im sure that the Toyota dealership will happily take his $78k+ (this is laughable) and he will have plenty of choices. The 200 is so unwanted they only sold 259 last month in the entire country, which is down about 35 from this month last year. For reference, the Touareg, which VW spends no advertising money on, sold 642 nationwide. Nobody wants to spend $78k for a 13 mile per gallon, 5800 lbs behemoth.

 

[daveyboy]

I think that VW/Audi have some absolutely beautiful vehicles in person--and on paper.

But bar none, the most unreliable vehicle I have EVER owned was a Passat (bought new and German built). For the first 2 years, it was all honeymoon, but then, it was like a magical gremlin switch was flipped and it was problem after problem. And I mean stuff that I didn't have go bad on old beater 70's GM vehicles--and it was expensive stuff.

After getting burned on the Passat, I don't know if I could buy another VAG vehicle... but a diesel Tourag sure looks good, I just think with my luck, I would spend most of my time looking at it in the shop.

 

[Eric Edwards]

Viggen, relax man, I'm not saying anything negative about you or the Tourag. The video's I posted were of stock LandCruisers, with nothing more than armor and a snorkel from what I can tell.

I've owned both a stock and modified LC200, and am speaking from experience. As I said earlier, I've also owned two Jeep Wranglers and a Land Rover Discover II, so it's not like I'm speaking from a vacuum of knowledge here. An overland vehicle must balance offroad capability, reliability, serviceability, availability of parts, availability of aftermarket parts and driver fatigue among others. If you want to take a holistic view based upon that criteria, I give the Tourag a 4/10 and the Landcruiser a 9/10.

A couple things:

1. Who cares about sales numbers? The reason the LC200 sells poorly in the US is lack of marketing, proximity in price to the Lexus branded variant and lack of knowledge about the LC's heritage across the world
2. If you read any publications in Australia about overland vehicles, expect to read a huge amount regarding Land Cruisers, Nissans and Land Rovers... I think they are unbiased and credible sources
3. The UN has standardized on the LandCruiser. Guess VW couldn't make enough Tourags? = D

 

[Viggen]

Im not getting worked up or mad. I dont own a TReg. They are just WAY out of the amount of money that I am willing to pay for a car. I will spend that much playing around with one but never on a new car. That being said, the TReg is $30k cheaper than a 200 series. So, if you want to talk about cost of ownership, it has a head start right there. Not to mention it will get an easy 5 or 6 mpg more than the shameful 13 mpg that the 200 gets. Financially, the $2k youll spend every 15k miles on brakes and a tire or two is nothing in the grand scheme.

1. The sales of the Land Cruiser here in the US do show something. Really, less than 300 units sold across the whole of the country. Thats shameful. Its price point being high has nothing to do with it. Land Rover has Discos and Range Rovers that are that high and have no problem moving them. That, and they are more economical. Toyota has slapped the L on the Cruiser and you know how many they moved last month? 291. Land Rover moved 902 Range Rovers in the same month. Even combined with Lexus, its still an unwanted, unsuccessful vehicle.
2. How many 200s do you see in these vaunted Australian magazines? Also, in these same magazines, you know what is voted the best 'ute pickup, a FAR larger market? Its the VW Amarok.
3. The UN also standardized on the Defender, which according to everyone here is a Land Rover and therefore completely unreliable. It also probably has something to do with dealership network. That matters a lot. Its probably the only reason why Scott put an E class Mercedes on the top 10 list. Remember that? That was dumb. New Mercs are nightmares but I guess parts can be had most anyplace when it breaks (but too bad the knowledge probably isnt).

Ive never said, and you can check back, that the TReg is a better truck. I only contested your claims of it being less capable and less safe. Even with out of warranty repairs being more expensive (probably), at $30k LESS and better mileage than a 200 series, you would still spend less on the TReg.

 

[Atipps]

Thats a tough one...

First off they are two completely different vehicles. The 200 is going to feel way more cumbersome and bulky, more like a truck. In the stock form i wouldn't be surprised if the touareg makes it every where the lc will, seeing how they roughly have the same ground clearance. If you want a more off road worthy touareg go with the first generation cause it has a low transfer case and adjustable ride height. The v10 tdi you mentioned is a monster... the thing has 553 foot pounds which is much as most 2500 diesel trucks. The touareg shares the same platform as the Porsche cayenne and the Audi q7. When we were buying we looked at the cayenne and the treg sidee by side and noticed the same damn car with a different badge. The touareg's fit and finish is going to be far superior. My family owns a 2011 v6 tdi lux and let me tell you, it is NICE. The ride is great, and the power of that diesel is awesome, not to mention it gets 25mpg all day long in mixed driving, something you definitely wont see in a bulky land cruiser. It tows our 23ft 7500 pound boat considerably good. As far as reliability id have to give it to the lc but the treg comes with a 100000 mile power train so i wouldn't even worry about that. SO which brings us to the final deciding factor.. PRICE the touareg is gonna be at least 30k cheaper new and in my opinion you get way more for your money. The new 200s are nice but ask yourself, do you really want to spend 90 grand on a toyota? Test drive them both i guarantee the treg will not disappoint!

btw read this
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suvs/1307_luxury_diesel_suv_comparison/

 

[Eric Edwards]

I think all this boils down to preference. Personally, I would ditch my gas 200 for the twin turbo diesel version in a heartbeat, but the US sadly doesn't get them.

In regards to sales numbers, here's the problem. It's called brand and brand perception. Toyota has spent the last decade emphasizing their green credentials, and the 200 is in direct opposition to that brand. It's been speculated that Toyota will be ditching the FJ, Sequoia and Land Cruiser in the US within 5 years. If you walk onto a Toyota lot, 70% of the time there won't even be a Land Cruiser on the lot, and the majority of sales reps don't even realize they carry it. I even had a service rep at my dealership ask why I lifted my Highlander... his manager was next to him and nearly choked on his doughnut. True story. This is the primary reason for the poor sales numbers.

Also, does the $70K price tag on a "Toyota" vs. $80K for a Lexus 570 also impact the sales? Sadly yes. Most people won't spend that money on a "Toyota" even though the Lexus is the exact same car with a little more leather and real wood. Go figure.

Anyway, I plan on going places where I need to know my vehicle wont break down and endanger my family. That's why I picked the 200 vs the Range Rover, but it's your call. Cheers.

 

[SOFME]

And there goes any credibility you might have had. The videos of the Touareg doing its thing are versions that you can get in the States and were stock on street OEM tires. The videos you posted of the 200 being 'superior' are modified with at least different tires and are versions not available to us here. Not really a good comparison. Not at all.


Well, if the OP does decide to get a 200, Im sure that the Toyota dealership will happily take his $78k+ (this is laughable) and he will have plenty of choices. The 200 is so unwanted they only sold 259 last month in the entire country, which is down about 35 from this month last year. For reference, the Touareg, which VW spends no advertising money on, sold 642 nationwide. Nobody wants to spend $78k for a 13 mile per gallon, 5800 lbs behemoth.

Thank god there is sense in this thread... I knew going in it would be an uphill battle... Honestly you land cruiser guys need to get off your high horse. If any land cruiser would be god's gift to off-roading it would be a 70 series... regardless, it certainly would not be a 200 series.

As far as maintenance costs I've owned several VAG cars, including a 2001.5 S4 (which I once pulled a, supposedly locked, jeep on 33's off a snow bank. To add insult to injury my S had summer performance tires on). For people who know, the 2.7t is one of the most glorious motors to ever come out of Germany, incidentally one of the most unreliable. And just like any German car you have to stay on top of maintenance.

 

[ShottsCruisers]

I remember when I used to get into these ridiculous arguments about which is better vs which. On a forum there is no winner. Reading some of these post though makes me want to say a couple of things:

***The 200 isn't selling in the US because of lack of marketing and such. The 100-Series received NO more marketing than the 200 yet they are plastered around the world everywhere. The 200-Series are simply over priced for what MOST people need. For 95% of the globe a Tahoe meets folk's needs. That's where the sales go. The 200 is priced more like a Range Rover but it's not a "RR brand" (nor is the Lexus). Typical US folks and movie stars want to say they have RR not a LC. Ever heard about women talking about their COACH purses? LOL! Toyota can advertise the crap out of the 200 and sales will go nowhere.

***In an expedition or wheeling forum you don't focus on an SUV like the Touareg. It was NEVER designed for such (heavier-duty) use. Components are lighter-duty which is the focus of design. That's all OK! They ride nice. Are roomy. But don't think you can be successful when equipping one with roof tents, steel bumpers, a 1000 extra pounds. That's a plan for failure.

***The 200 is still durable enough for such a use and that's what sets it apart here. That's the main reason they kept the live rear axle. It is a total tank that can be equipped for what you need. It's no 100 in the rocks but neither was the 100 compared to the 80.

So, to the question: In 10 years...how many old Touaregs vs Jeeps vs Land Cruiser vs Range Rovers vs X5s will you see (anywhere from stock to decked out) out wheeling Moab, in the Middle East, in the Australian outback, on the Rubicon...follow me? It's not fair to the Touareg and X5 to be put into this category. They are just not made for that! Good luck seeing them and for a good reason.

 

[TeCKis300]

Well, if the OP does decide to get a 200, Im sure that the Toyota dealership will happily take his $78k+ (this is laughable) and he will have plenty of choices. The 200 is so unwanted they only sold 259 last month in the entire country, which is down about 35 from this month last year. For reference, the Touareg, which VW spends no advertising money on, sold 642 nationwide. Nobody wants to spend $78k for a 13 mile per gallon, 5800 lbs behemoth.

And hence the rub and the main point of contention you are not appreciating.

The Toureg, while wholly capable, is built no where near the duty cycle that is expected of a Land Cruiser. Yes, the Toureg is efficient and can go many of the same places. Question has always been... for how long? Unlike what you may think, the LC's are not priced and built for the sake of vanity. There is significant substance that you are missing - the fact that it is built for heavy duty use for a longer duty cycle (300k miles). Much beyond what is expected of the average vehicle, Touareg included.

When viewed from a total cost of ownership perspective for lets say 200k miles, especially given the admittedly fragile nature of certain parts from many VAG owners - the initial $20k differential should start to make some sense.

Toyota really has no expectation of the LC200 to be a mainstream vehicle. It is truly overbuilt for the average owner. Something they may never appreciate, while questioning the efficiency compromises it will bring. That is why Toyota offers other options like the Sequoia or GX.

So if the OP has no need for an overbuilt vehicle, than the Toureg may be there better choice. An analogy may be a 1/2 ton vs 3/4 ton pickup. If your needs are completely met by an F150, than one may not appreciate the added expense of an F250.

 

[Vzfit]

Thanks to all for your input and entertaining arguments. I have the opportunity to purchase a 2006 vw v10 tdi Touareg with 66k miles in the 25k range and think I will go with that option. I also was offered a new 200 series for 70k and man what a nice ride. However, I just cannot stomach that much of a financial commitment for a car. However, when I drove it around (by far the nicest/coolest off road tech/safe feeling vehicle i have ever been in) it was easy to forget.

Long story short...

I am 80% sure I am going to go with the 06 touareg. Reason being:
1) This is not my overland rig. The harshest off-road travel will probably be something like the Alpine Loop in Colorado. Do you guys think an 2006 touareg will survive this? I think so. I once saw a ford taurus station wagon crawling up a mountain pass in Afghanistan.
2) Too much money makes me sweat.
3) Air Conditioned seats are awesome, especially if you have chronic swamp a$@ like me. Point LC
4) I am kind of hesitant for thinking that toyota will deliver a new model of LC in the next 2 years better than the 2013. Maybe it would house front and rear locking diffs like it used to.

 

[Kaisen]

I have the opportunity to purchase a 2006 vw v10 tdi Touareg with 66k miles in the 25k range and think I will go with that option.

I think you'll love it, and it will do everything you'll ask of it. And do it quite well.

I also think you should consider purchasing an extended warranty

 

[Vzfit]

Thanks, USAA has a pretty good 2 yr extended warranty for everything but brakes and tires. Def going to purchase that in case this baby wants to act up on me.

 

[Viggen]

Thanks, USAA has a pretty good 2 yr extended warranty for everything but brakes and tires. Def going to purchase that in case this baby wants to act up on me.

As someone who has been around VWs for most of my life, if youre going with the first gen, you had better get the best, most complete 3rd party warranty you can get your hands on, especially since youre going V10 diesel. Bumper to bumper. Its going to get V8 fuel mileage and parts are terribly expensive if they fail. The turbos are north of $2k and then you have to get them installed. A lot of things require the removal of the motor. Find a V8 instead. Seriously. Or, better yet, find a 2007-2010 VW Touareg with the 6 cylinder tdi.

 

[SOFME]

As someone who has been around VWs for most of my life, if youre going with the first gen, you had better get the best, most complete 3rd party warranty you can get your hands on, especially since youre going V10 diesel. Bumper to bumper. Its going to get V8 fuel mileage and parts are terribly expensive if they fail. The turbos are north of $2k and then you have to get them installed. A lot of things require the removal of the motor. Find a V8 instead. Seriously. Or, better yet, find a 2007-2010 VW Touareg with the 6 cylinder tdi.

USAA is probably the best in just jus insurance, but all banking, investing, and whatever else they do... I will agree i would recommend getting the v6 tdi... Unless your a huge fan of vw and want to buy a few specialty tools.