2016 Tacoma

[Clutch]

Meh. I sold my paid for 2001 3.4 Tacoma for a manual Diesel Jetta Wagon. The diesel is cool, it's fun to drive, but we here on Expo are unique in this I think. Nobody else is going to appreciate the way a diesel feels or it's unique driving characteristics, all they are going to care about MPG and what it costs them at the end of the day. When things start getting expensive, diesel is going to get old quick....but in a day an age of looking and the here and now, not the big picture or life cycle cost, I can see the allure.

If I had to do it again, I'd probably stick with a gas to be honest. The diesel range is great, filling up once every 2-3 weeks with a daily commute of 20 miles is convenient sure, but the potential $$ to fix the emissions system hanging over my head is not. The gas engines are so proven and fine tuned over the years, there is so much less to go wrong. Funny how times change, the same could be send for diesel over gas 15+ years ago.

I think that another primary driver in keeping Toyota from playing in the diesel market here is the complexity of the systems to make a diesel pass EPA req's. They are complex and a PITA when it comes time to fix. There are work arounds, on the VW's, but you have to modify the stock systems, voiding warranties and generally deviating from the way the engineers designed the thing. If I put myself in Toyotas shoes, would I want these complex systems (potentially) dilluting the marques ratings? Very expensive to fix? After all, we buy Toyotas for 200k miles of trouble free service, VW owners, by comparison, expect to spend some money and know it's part of the 'experience' or so I'm told.

I spent a day driving my buddy's VW TDI, I sure did like the torque, but everything else about diesel I could live without. High buy in cost, higher fuel cost, fixing that thing out of warranty no thanks! A diesel Taco might get 27-28 mpg HWY....I have been lurking on the Chevy forums, some guys are getting 25 mpg out of their 5.3 Silverados. Colorado 4 bangers are getting 27. How true that is I don't know, but diesel doesn't seem worth it when you factor everything in together. I dunno...the Silverado looks like a better buy than a Tacoma, get a lot more truck for about the same money.

We owned a gas Jetta for a bit....I will never own another modern VW after that POS. that thing ruined me...

 

[nickw]

I spent a day driving my buddy's VW TDI, I sure did like the torque, but everything else about diesel I could live without. High buy in cost, higher fuel cost, fixing that thing out of warranty no thanks! A diesel Taco might get 27-28 mpg HWY....I have been lurking on the Chevy forums, some guys are getting 25 mpg out of their 5.3 Silverados. Colorado 4 bangers are getting 27. How true that is I don't know, but diesel doesn't seem worth it when you factor everything in together. I dunno...the Silverado looks like a better buy than a Tacoma, get a lot more truck for about the same money.

We owned a gas Jetta for a bit....I will never own another modern VW after that POS. that thing ruined me...

I really like the Jetta Wagon for what it is, a commuter / long distance travel / bike hauler. It sucks for anything gravel and my hitch drags on everything, which is frustrating. So far about 50k miles and no problems though, feels solid, drives great. None of that matters when (if) I run into reliability issues though, which is the concern.

I highly doubt 25 mpg. I managed to squeak 23 mpg out of my Taco a couple times, granny driving, keeping it at 55, right roads, etc. Real world MPG was closer to 18 the other 98% of the time. I'm guessing it's the same situation with the Chevy's. I wouldn't hesitate to drive one, if it fit in my garage.

 

[Clutch]

I really like the Jetta Wagon for what it is, a commuter / long distance travel / bike hauler. It sucks for anything gravel and my hitch drags on everything, which is frustrating. So far about 50k miles and no problems though, feels solid, drives great. None of that matters when (if) I run into reliability issues though, which is the concern.

I like the VW Sportwagon, it just isn't versatile enough for what we do. Finding out even our SUV is fairly limited for what I need it to do.

I highly doubt 25 mpg. I managed to squeak 23 mpg out of my Taco a couple times, granny driving, keeping it at 55, right roads, etc. Real world MPG was closer to 18 the other 98% of the time. I'm guessing it's the same situation with the Chevy's. I wouldn't hesitate to drive one, if it fit in my garage.

I dunno, the Ram EcoDiesel is fetching solid high 20's in the mileage department, I would assume a diesel Tacoma would do the same, perhaps a little better.

I test drove a brand new Silverado, I should of done that..I am "like" why am I driving a Tacoma?? I can barely get 17.5 mpg out of it, and I baby it. My buddy is getting 20 mpg out of his Silverado which is the model before the EcoTecs.

 

[calicamper]

I like the VW Sportwagon, it just isn't versatile enough for what we do. Finding out even our SUV is fairly limited for what I need it to do.



I dunno, the Ram EcoDiesel is fetching solid high 20's in the mileage department, I would assume a diesel Tacoma would do the same, perhaps a little better.

I test drove a brand new Silverado, I should of done that..I am "like" why am I driving a Tacoma?? I can barely get 17.5 mpg out of it, and I baby it. My buddy is getting 20 mpg out of his Silverado which is the model before the EcoTecs.

My Uncle found a mint 98 z1 1500 40,000 miles on it last summer. 4 trips from Ca to montana and hes getting 19 with his basic pop top light camper. With the 4wheeler atv on the trailer hes getting 17. The chevy trucks have returned pretty respectable mileage for a long time.Thats why I could never pull the trigger on a Frontier or Tacoma for a new truck. I would only buy used. Bump the mileage up and Id be tempted to go new.

 

[brianjwilson]

Silverado? lol. You can keep that pos. The few new Silverados I've driven were terrible. Trying to cruise at 70mph on flat ground it couldn't decide if it should be running on all cylinder or half. It just kept cycling and jerking back and forth. Man I hate those trucks. They feel like slugs, have super soft grandma like suspensions and transmissions, terrible interiors IMO.

We love our 2010 VW TDI. Bought it brand new, now 64k miles. Longest we have owned any vehicle. Great power, great economy (45mph at 80mph with the a/c on), only non-scheduled maintenance was an o2 sensor. Cost really wasn't much of a factor either. The TDI was more than a base model but included several options that it came with. Comparably equipped the price difference was minimal.

Anyway I wouldn't imagine any of the newer trucks with a small diesel getting great economy with a lift, tires and modifications anyway. Especially with more stringent emissions. I think they can do enough with gas now to be very comparable for less money and less emissions crap. Don't get me wrong I love our little diesel but I'm not sure I'd pay a huge premium that would likely be charged for a diesel truck for a minimal gain.

 

[Clutch]

Silverado? lol. You can keep that pos. The few new Silverados I've driven were terrible. Trying to cruise at 70mph on flat ground it couldn't decide if it should be running on all cylinder or half. It just kept cycling and jerking back and forth. Man I hate those trucks. They feel like slugs, have super soft grandma like suspensions and transmissions, terrible interiors IMO.

My Uncle found a mint 98 z1 1500 40,000 miles on it last summer. 4 trips from Ca to montana and hes getting 19 with his basic pop top light camper. With the 4wheeler atv on the trailer hes getting 17. The chevy trucks have returned pretty respectable mileage for a long time.Thats why I could never pull the trigger on a Frontier or Tacoma for a new truck. I would only buy used. Bump the mileage up and Id be tempted to go new.

I have driven a couple few Silverados, I didn't get experience that Brian did...I kinda liked the interiors, my dirt bike buddy's is a 2010 IIRC, I like the sparten interior, felt like how a truck should feel...no nonsense. Felt plenty powerful to me (coming off a Tacoma, most anything would )...different strokes I guess. New Tacoma/Frontier vs. F150/Silverado...I would have to pick one of the domestics. Hell, even used the Ford or the Chevy is better deal...I have Toyotas for 25 years, but I even think the Toyota tax is silly. I like the mid sizes because you can still get a manual trans, but I don't think that is enough to keep me anymore. Tundras get dismal mileage...all of the guys I know that own them can't get anymore than 13-14 mpg out of them.

I don't know why the majority of the Overland crowd knocks on the GM's seem fine to me.

We love our 2010 VW TDI. Bought it brand new, now 64k miles. Longest we have owned any vehicle. Great power, great economy (45mph at 80mph with the a/c on), only non-scheduled maintenance was an o2 sensor. Cost really wasn't much of a factor either. The TDI was more than a base model but included several options that it came with. Comparably equipped the price difference was minimal.

You couldn't give me a new VW, worse vehicle we have ever owned (bought new) it was roached at 60K miles. Fixed it one last time (I almost took out the desert and set it ablaze), sold it and bought a Civic. My Aunt's Beetle she bought new gave up the ghost at 30K, that thing was literally falling apart...tranny died at 30K miles...30 fricken thousand miles. My other buddy's TDI which he bought new needed $8000 worth of fuel system work at 55K miles....thank gawd it was covered under warranty. He nows drives a F150 EcoBoost, loves that truck.

VW has the style right, they are awfully cute...engineering is quite another thing. *shudder* No thanks!

 

[p nut]

You couldn't give me a new VW, worse vehicle we have ever owned (bought new) it was roached at 60K miles. Fixed it one last time (I almost took out the desert and set it ablaze), sold it and bought a Civic. My Aunt's Beetle she bought new gave up the ghost at 30K, that thing was literally falling apart...tranny died at 30K miles...30 fricken thousand miles. My other buddy's TDI which he bought new needed $8000 worth of fuel system work at 55K miles....thank gawd it was covered under warranty. He nows drives a F150 EcoBoost, loves that truck.

That right there is why we all keep coming back to Toyota and pay the tax. Worse MPG than new full size truck, worse performance than other mid-size trucks, comparatively crappy payload, the "C-CHANNEL" (!!!), etc. But when that odo reads 150k+ and all you've done is oil changes and spit-shined it every once in a while? And it's running like it was on day 1?? Let me know how the domestic trucks are doing at that stage. :costumed-smiley-007

 

[brianjwilson]

Yeah if you put gas in a new tdi you'll be buying a new fuel system. Haha. That is the first one concern I have with the car, if I get bad fuel mixed with gas somewhere.

My new dclb 4x4 tacoma with tow, power options, nav etc is around 31k so it is pretty reasonable compared to everything else out there IMO. An f150 with similar options would probably retail over 45k. No ranger to compare it to but based on their price when they stopped making them it was about the same.

 

[speedtre]

That right there is why we all keep coming back to Toyota and pay the tax. Worse MPG than new full size truck, worse performance than other mid-size trucks, comparatively crappy payload, the "C-CHANNEL" (!!!), etc. But when that odo reads 150k+ and all you've done is oil changes and spit-shined it every once in a while? And it's running like it was on day 1?? Let me know how the domestic trucks are doing at that stage. :costumed-smiley-007

I'm a Toyota truck guy, but my father in laws 2001 GMC 2500 with the 6.0 has 150k miles on it, feels like new when you drive it and that motor feels like Thor's Hammer. I can't say a bad thing about that truck. Hell, he didn't have to replace the brake pads till he got over 100K on it. Damn, thing feels like an anvil too...in a good way. Oh, I can say one bad thing about it....averages about same MPG as a Titan/Tundra, which is to say about 13-14 MPG.

 

[Clutch]

That right there is why we all keep coming back to Toyota and pay the tax. Worse MPG than new full size truck, worse performance than other mid-size trucks, comparatively crappy payload, the "C-CHANNEL" (!!!), etc. But when that odo reads 150k+ and all you've done is oil changes and spit-shined it every once in a while? And it's running like it was on day 1?? Let me know how the domestic trucks are doing at that stage. :costumed-smiley-007

I have been pretty happy with all the Toyotas I have owned, run up the miles too. No real complaints, other than the so-so mpg for what it is. It is a great little truck, that is for sure. I don't care if the frame is C-Channel or boxed, funny my old '75 F250 was a C-Channel, my 1st gen Taco is mostly boxed. I am hesitant to buy something else other than Toyota, however I have the itch for a 1/2 ton, and I am not crazy about the Tundras. Would like a little bit more room, a bit more capacity. If they are getting the same (or better) mpg as a Taco seems like a no brainer.

The other things is, I am not too happy with my RWD Trooper in the snow (pretty sure I am going to sell it) I view SUV's mostly worthless for our needs anyway, so we need to add another 4WD to the stable, a DC 1/2 ton has the same rear seat leg room as the Trooper, plus a 6.5' bed, which would be great for hauling my dirt bikes, (no longer need to drag a trailer)...double cab, would be great for tossing gear bags back there...killing a bunch of birds with one stone, is my thinking. FWC might be in the future, I won't put a FWC on a Tacoma, it would be overloaded before I stuffed it with provisions and gear. Even a 1/2 ton would be pushing payload capacity according to my fuzzy math.

Yeah if you put gas in a new tdi you'll be buying a new fuel system. Haha. That is the first one concern I have with the car, if I get bad fuel mixed with gas somewhere.

He had metal shavings in the fuel system from a HPFP failure, said it was a common problem???

My new dclb 4x4 tacoma with tow, power options, nav etc is around 31k so it is pretty reasonable compared to everything else out there IMO. An f150 with similar options would probably retail over 45k. No ranger to compare it to but based on their price when they stopped making them it was about the same.

Me, I don't need too much fluff, would do a work truck package with power windows. Prefer vinyl seats too, since I am really hard on interiors. Local Chevy dealer has some reasonable priced Silverados on the lot.

http://www.edmarknampa.com/new-Nampa-2015-Chevrolet-Silverado+1500-LT4WD-1GCVKRECXFZ187713


a 3/4 ton is overkill for me, but the price seems reasonable.

http://www.edmarknampa.com/new-Nampa-2015-Chevrolet-Silverado+2500HD-Work+Truck4WD-1GC2KUEG4FZ140623

 

[bkg]

That right there is why we all keep coming back to Toyota and pay the tax. Worse MPG than new full size truck, worse performance than other mid-size trucks, comparatively crappy payload, the "C-CHANNEL" (!!!), etc. But when that odo reads 150k+ and all you've done is oil changes and spit-shined it every once in a while? And it's running like it was on day 1?? Let me know how the domestic trucks are doing at that stage. :costumed-smiley-007

Be careful in your rant. The flat-biller Toyota swingers will call you out on your facts. And Captain C-Channel will be personally offended at your exposure of Toyota's irrelevancy.

 

[p nut]

Friend of mine, in the commercial construction business, has been a jimmy boy all his driving career. Last 20 yrs, has bought a new Sierra 1/2 or 3/4 ton and sold it at 100k miles--usually every 3 years, give or take a few months. Last one was back in '07. Convinced him to try out the new gen Tundra. So he bought an '08 and has been driving it since. He's cut back on driving as much (still pretty hard on his vehicles), and now it's at 160k miles. He has no desire to give it up. Still runs tight and gets 15mpg--better than his last Sierra at 13, which was falling apart with the CEL lit since 60k miles.

Sierra's rode really nice, though. Definitely more plush on the road than the Taco. But the Tundra rides much nicer, he says.

The improvements in mpg in domestics is enticing. Still have my doubts, so my money on the next truck will go towards big T.

 

[Clutch]

The improvements in mpg in domestics is enticing. Still have my doubts, so my money on the next truck will go towards big T.

I test drove all of them, they all seem nice. Real hard to tell what they are going to be like with 150K+ miles on them, without physically owning it. Because you hear bad and good stories from both sides.

 

[brianjwilson]

He had metal shavings in the fuel system from a HPFP failure, said it was a common problem???

Straying more on topic (if that's possible)... I think common is relative. Now everyone has the internet and we all know about everything that happens with cars. I know a ton of people with 2010+ VW TDIs and nobody I know has had a single issue. Nobody I know has even heard of it. However if you looked at tdi forums the first year or two everyone acted like they were terrified that their car was going to blow up. I've asked dealers as I've moved around the country and most of the service advisors looked at me with a very puzzled face when I mentioned it and asked about it. So I just drive the car and enjoy it. The manual does say no more than B5 blend I think (bio is actually better for lubricity though), but the general concensus has been that low quality (low lubricity) diesel has destroyed the high pressure fuel pump and sent the metal shavings through the fuel system, leaving a $7000 repair bill. Many cars that had this problem had the fuel tested by dealers and claimed to have large amounts of gas in the tank (ie filled up with gas on accident). Hence the new recall every six months placing yet ANOTHER sticker or guard on the car to prevent people from putting gas in.

I have actually read of similar issues with later model diesel trucks, same thing. Seems to happen less. Probably fewer soccer moms driving them and forgetting what type of fuel to use, maybe better tolerances in the pumps. We (the US) has very terrible auto fuel quality control. Very loosely regulated. Trucks are often filled with gas, dumped, filled with diesel etc with no cleaning. Trucks are often dumped into wrong holding tanks. Who to blame? Refineries, individual truck drivers, the guy at the station who makes minimum wage? Or the auto manufacturer who buys a part from Bosch that is supposed to meet US fuel standards? I do keep all fuel receipts for the VW just in case but I only fill it once a month usually anyway. Typically I do use a lubricity additive just for cheap insurance, it does seem to run slightly smoother and with higher Mpgs anyway when I use it.

For what it's worth, when I was following the TDI forums, many people who were out of warranty actually got their insurance company to pay for the fuel system repairs as they were blamed on bad fuel or mis-fuelings.



BUT back to the other diesel discussion... Had the fuel prices looked the way they do now (steadily), I probably would have considered a GTI with the gas 2.0 turbo or something because it would actually make more sense cost wise and still fun to drive. I keep looking at the Audi A4 AWD 2.0L turbo as a possible fun replacement but the wife isn't due for a new car any time soon. So again, with the thought of a diesel in a Tacoma, it doesn't make FINANCIAL sense yet, and generally Toyota buyers are very penny pinching spread sheets types.. I mean how many models does Toyota make that are "fun" to drive off the lot, really? Corolla, Camry, Prius, Highlander etc? Talk about the MOST boring cars on the road!

 

[Clutch]

Straying more on topic (if that's possible)... I think common is relative. Now everyone has the internet and we all know about everything that happens with cars. I know a ton of people with 2010+ VW TDIs and nobody I know has had a single issue. Nobody I know has even heard of it. However if you looked at tdi forums the first year or two everyone acted like they were terrified that their car was going to blow up. I've asked dealers as I've moved around the country and most of the service advisors looked at me with a very puzzled face when I mentioned it and asked about it. So I just drive the car and enjoy it. The manual does say no more than B5 blend I think (bio is actually better for lubricity though), but the general concensus has been that low quality (low lubricity) diesel has destroyed the high pressure fuel pump and sent the metal shavings through the fuel system, leaving a $7000 repair bill. Many cars that had this problem had the fuel tested by dealers and claimed to have large amounts of gas in the tank (ie filled up with gas on accident). Hence the new recall every six months placing yet ANOTHER sticker or guard on the car to prevent people from putting gas in.

I have actually read of similar issues with later model diesel trucks, same thing. Seems to happen less. Probably fewer soccer moms driving them and forgetting what type of fuel to use, maybe better tolerances in the pumps. We (the US) has very terrible auto fuel quality control. Very loosely regulated. Trucks are often filled with gas, dumped, filled with diesel etc with no cleaning. Trucks are often dumped into wrong holding tanks. Who to blame? Refineries, individual truck drivers, the guy at the station who makes minimum wage? Or the auto manufacturer who buys a part from Bosch that is supposed to meet US fuel standards? I do keep all fuel receipts for the VW just in case but I only fill it once a month usually anyway. Typically I do use a lubricity additive just for cheap insurance, it does seem to run slightly smoother and with higher Mpgs anyway when I use it.

For what it's worth, when I was following the TDI forums, many people who were out of warranty actually got their insurance company to pay for the fuel system repairs as they were blamed on bad fuel or mis-fuelings.



BUT back to the other diesel discussion... Had the fuel prices looked the way they do now (steadily), I probably would have considered a GTI with the gas 2.0 turbo or something because it would actually make more sense cost wise and still fun to drive. I keep looking at the Audi A4 AWD 2.0L turbo as a possible fun replacement but the wife isn't due for a new car any time soon. So again, with the thought of a diesel in a Tacoma, it doesn't make FINANCIAL sense yet, and generally Toyota buyers are very penny pinching spread sheets types.. I mean how many models does Toyota make that are "fun" to drive off the lot, really? Corolla, Camry, Prius, Highlander etc? Talk about the MOST boring cars on the road!

Thanks for the in depth explanation on the VW fuel issues.

As for diesels, I dunno...diesel has been more expensive than gas for a while now. I don't foresee that changing, even if, more likely when gas prices go up, gas would still the better choice in many cases.