Porkchopexpress
Well-known member
I have dealt with lawyers many times. You are entitled to your opinion and risk aversion but but no need to make condescending assumptions.
2500 vs 3500 series trucks - differences?
- Thread starter djm68
- Start date
UglyViking
Well-known member
I'm cautious of going too far down the GVWR rabbit hole here for obvious reasons, but just as a counter. It's also just as possible that someone with a 3500 running under the legal numbers has an accident and is found at fault for some wonky reason (say they changed to 37" tires, or different than factory wheels, etc.) and charged criminally/civilly. Is it possible? Sure, anything is possible. Is it probable? No, absolutely not. If your argument is that it's best to not tempt fate, then you best not change anything from the factory setup, because at that point it wouldn't be hard for a lawyer to make the case.
Considering this is a forum where we all discuss modifications on making our vehicles preform better, primarily off road, I'll make the assumption that we aren't gonna stop changing to 37" tires, at which point it all kind of goes out the window.
For what it's worth, I don't think DOT even checks the payload or GVWR numbers. So long as you are within axle ratings and under GCWR (for towing a trailer) they just move you along, at least so I've heard.
ramblinChet
Well-known member
Or you could just purchase an AEV Prospector from a nearby RAM dealer and reduce your legal risk significantly. If you were going to sit in front of a judge and jury which vehicle with a 3" lift and 37" tires would you prefer to have been driving?
1) AEV Prospector - engineered by actual automotive engineers, tested and manufactured to OEM standards, and sold as a complete package by a RAM dealer
-or-
2) HD RAM - designed by...you and the interwebs, kinda tested on the street by some guys without any recognized standards, and installed by you and some buddies over the weekend
And although I agree with you there is a low probability of someone being sued into oblivion for someone else being injured or killed in an accident I can easily recognize the value of a AEV system versus some goofy combination of components from a number of different manufactures which were never tested as a complete system. Just saying...
Ninelitetrip
Well-known member
Well can we kind of stick to what he is doing? Older used truck with a self build camper? This is presumably a US purchase, we don't have the German TUV or UK MOT, we have some states without even an inspection for non commercial vehicles.
UglyViking
Well-known member
I feel like this question was answered. Generally speaking it's springs only but dig into model/year specific forums for your best set of knowledge. Legally you can never upgrade your payload, practically you can.
I'm generally a dodge fan for the simplicity of the cummins, but the Ford 7.3 is a good truck overall. I'd stay away from the GM platforms if you've got big tire dreams as it will be harder to do without lifting a ton and thus wrecking your center of gravity.
OP, if you've got anything specific you want answered please just follow up. Everyone is more than happy to answer I'm sure.
Tex68w
Beach Bum
If you think that was condescending then I can't help you.
I am not referencing those with modifications that stay within the trucks GVWR as that's not much of a concern, I am talking about those that modify and go over the listed GVWR, how this is being misconstrued as anything else is beyond me. I modify my trucks with mild lifts and larger tires and bumpers but I try my best not to go over GVWR and I am pretty sure I've only done it once and that was with the PW.
So what is the value that was recognized?
You just have to get the AEV gospel out there. What's the judge and jury going to say? "It says here you were driving an AEV prospector, best possible choice son, all charges dropped, you're free to go." And the room explodes in applause. Just make sure you got the gap insurance.
UglyViking
Well-known member
My point is that you're making a correlation that above GVWR means you're potentially liable if you're in an accident and cause harm.
My point is that the same can be said for wheels, tires, bumpers, etc.
Imagine for example, you accidentally rear end someone in another car. They can see the aftermarket bumper, attempt to sue you, claim that the bumper reduces "give" and thus caused more force to be transferred to their vehicle and harming them.
Or, you could have 37" tires, and a strong wind pushes your vehicle into another. They could claim that your vehicle being taller, or the wheels being larger with more sidewall caused your vehicle to hit them. Or you could have not braked hare enough and the tires are at fault, or you could have lost control while towing and the tires are at fault.
I could go on but my point is that every aftermarket component is a potential vector for a lawsuit. Your stance on GVWR is fine and you share that view with many others. That said, it's not even close to the only item you could be liable for. So my point was that if you change something from OEM to aftermarket you are taking the risk that you could be held liable for it. Considering that I've never seen a case where someone was held liable for aftermarket accessories (when used within accordance with the law) or being over GVWR I feel it's a balance every person must take themselves.
ramblinChet
Well-known member
If you are unable to recognize the value in an engineered package, tested using industry recognized testing facilities and being sold by an authorized RAM dealer when compared to a mixture of springs and shocks combined with heim joints and other random gear then I am not able to help you.
Yeah, pretty much. In fact, I doubt it would even go to trial once the opposing lawyer heard the details. And why the AEV hate? Is it their very cool bison logo or the fact that they offer a superior system in every respect? And gap insurance is only useful for folks who take loans out and make other folks wealthy - I pay cash for everything.
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UglyViking
Well-known member
Ok, I can't bite my tongue anymore. First, I've gotta say that I do sincerely think that a lot of what AEV puts out is real quality parts. Their highmark flares, their snorkels, their bumpers, wheels, etc. Not only are they well designed and manufactured but they seem built to last and are mostly made here in the USA. So while it may not seem like it with what I'm about to say, I am a big fan.
That said, you continue to make an argument from authority on AEV. You claim that they have actual automotive engineers vs "some guys", which I've gotta say I'm sure Sage Carli and Don Thuren would both get a kick out of, but hey thats them, so I'm sure they can come and laugh if they want, but they probably have too much going on being "some guys" designing products for our trucks.
Additionally, you make claims that AEV is superior quality because you can buy it at a RAM dealer and keep the warranty. I don't see what that has to do with anything. For example, Rocky Ridge trucks are sold direct through dealerships, they maintain a warranty, and they have cheap spacer + diff drop suspensions.
You've also made statements that you're an engineer yourself, however you've not yet provided details into why AEV is "the best". I'm not an engineer, I've got 0 background in the field, so I'm not going to pretend that I do. However, at this point you've attempted, multiple times might I add, to make an argument from authority, which I personally see no value in.
You say you're an engineer. You say AEV suspension is designed by engineers while others are not, thus AEV is better. I reject that argument in it's entirety. If you care to provide details then I am eager to listen and learn, however I refuse to be impressed by your schooling.
— Guy with (almost) 2 art degrees
XJLI
Adventurer
The original AEV Jeeps all used Nth degree suspension, which was a company started by a guy who was an engineer for Jeep and worked on/helped design the TJ. Eventually Nth went away, and AEV started selling it as their own stuff. Not sure where it all went from there, but that's the background from 15? years ago.
I appreciate all the info about 2500 vs. 3500, GVWR, and the idea on considering a newer gasser rig vs a very old diesel -- lots of useful info! In fact, I have started looking into the modern gassers; the newer gassers w/advanced engine management and advanced 8 or 10 speeeds transmissions certainly have much better fuel economy than old rigs with 4 speed slush boxes.
I am less excited about the p*ssing match that started wrt GVWR, lawyers, anecdotes, and general unfriendliness displayed by a few folks. It is great to highlight the concern of exceeding GVWR, but I think it is enough to leave it at that. :|
Cheers,
DJM
I am less excited about the p*ssing match that started wrt GVWR, lawyers, anecdotes, and general unfriendliness displayed by a few folks. It is great to highlight the concern of exceeding GVWR, but I think it is enough to leave it at that. :|
Cheers,
DJM
UglyViking
Well-known member
@djm68 for what it's worth, I've heard awesome things about the new RAM 8speed zf trans. Not good if you plan on towing a lot, and I wouldn't be so sure on it's MPG for a in-bed camper, but TrailRecon has a PowerWagon with a camper and he seems to be relatively happy with it.
The new Ford 7.3 seems pretty sweet as well.
I don't know that I consider some of the comments a pissing match, but you get a ton of guys on the internet talking about pretty much anything and it doesn't take long for us to all pull our rulers out to see who's biggest. Discussion helps us all learn and challenges our POV though, and frankly this isn't anywhere near as bad as I've seen on a lot of forums/facebook groups, but everyone has a different take
The new Ford 7.3 seems pretty sweet as well.
I don't know that I consider some of the comments a pissing match, but you get a ton of guys on the internet talking about pretty much anything and it doesn't take long for us to all pull our rulers out to see who's biggest. Discussion helps us all learn and challenges our POV though, and frankly this isn't anywhere near as bad as I've seen on a lot of forums/facebook groups, but everyone has a different take
Before you posted this, as part of my research, I did in-fact read your entire thread about spec'ing out your 3500 and your subsequent AEV work you had done. Nice rig.
DJM
ramblinChet
Well-known member
You are correct. Here are some additional details...
AEV is the brainchild of Dave Harrington who, if I remember correctly, created the company while working on his MBA in the mid-90s. It was such a great idea he won some money and actually got the company going. Their earliest work centered around stock wheel-base Wrangler TJs and also two different stretched versions. I think one was around 104" WB similar to XJs while the other was 112" or something like a CJ-8? Yes, they were building turn-key packages and people were excited. They began making really awesome bumpers, had wheels manufactures with correct off-set, were crash tested, etc. and around 2003 or 2004 began using Nth Degree Mobility suspension packages. The Brute conversion also came out around that same time period. AEV were now becoming the stars at SEMA, winning multiple FCA design excellence awards, etc. Of course, they then began offering Hemi conversion kits for Wranglers. If you are not amazed by this company by now who really cares because a few innovative guys from Detroit with deep pockets were. This relationship helped take AEV to the next level where AEV became very integrated into the OE manufacturing capacity and testing that Detroit had available.
Shifting to Nth Degree Mobility. Jim was a Senior Engineer at FCA although I do not recall specifically what he was associated with regarding the Wrangler TJ. Yes, he left FCA to begin Nth Degree Mobility and designed the most amazingly innovative suspension systems for the Wrangler TJ to include the first high clearance long-arm suspensions using a Gyro-joint. He also designed the absolute finest raised skid-plate "tummy-tucker", the Stinger rear suspension which eliminated axle-wrap under load, etc. When Nth closed and AEV purchased the company and their inventory Jim worked at AEV for several years updating the suspension system, performing R&D, etc.
There is so much more to share but I have much to do tonight to prepare for work tomorrow. If some folks on here hate AEV for whatever reason I really could care less - that's their problem, not mine. I began purchasing from AEV literally two decades ago and although I have purchased from countless others for a wide variety of projects AEV has proven again and again and again that they do not have ANY competition. If you desire to hack-together some flashy components from a few tiny shops and create your own signature suspension system then go for it - that's all you baby!
Yeah, I am talking about the same bunch of renegade guys who were building long wheelbase Wranger TJs that finally convinced Jeep to begin building the Wrangler Unlimited. The same ones building the Brute which inspired the new Gladiator. The same ones who were sticking 5.7 and 6.4L Hemi engines into Wranglers which are now available from the factory. On the other hand, if you are interested in owning the finest combination of components for your RAM that have actually been engineered in a state-of-the-art facility, endured months of salt-spray testing, thermal cycling, etc. then there is only one...AEV.
Someone post pictures of the "competitions" shop...here's AEVs.
