2wd e series wheel questions.

[Mwilliamshs]

Been working on wheel fitment and thought it might help someone...this van is a 2001 E-150 and it has 17" Dodge wheels on it

These 17" Dodge wheels are shown to have originally come on 2002-2003 Ram 1500's

2002 Dodge Ram 1500 front brake rotors have a center hub diameter of 78.55mm (3.08")

2002 Dodge Ram 1500 rear brake rotors have a center hub diameter of 78.4mm (3.07")

2001 Ford E-150 brake rotors have a center hub diameter of 3.43" (87.43mm)

2001 Ford E-150 brake drums have a center hub diameter of 3.45" (87.94mm)

So either ~.35 inches have been machined off the pictured rotors and drums, and/or wheels, or the wheels aren't properly installed on the vehicle. I'm very curious about this because I'd LOVE to get 17" wheels on my van but having to either machine 5 wheels and any replacement or 2 rotors and 2 drums and any replacements isn't my idea of a good side-effect of a mod that's supposed to improve functionality. I tried installing a 2004 Dodge Ram wheel on my van and the center hole was too small, so it wouldn't fit over the hub of my rotor (just tried it on the front). I could've started the lug nuts and centered the wheel up manually but the van's weight would be on the wheel studs and the wheel likely would've been off-center soon.


EDIT: 2003 Dodge 1500 Van rotors have a center hub diameter of 3.55"

So it's possible Dodge van wheels work but Dodge truck wheels won't...but can't find any record of Dodge 1500 Van coming with wheel diameter greater than 16".

And in this thread it's stated that BL's wheels will not fit a 1997 Dodge Ram 1500 without a center-bore adapter, so neither generation (2 or 3) of Dodge 5 lug truck wheels fit Fords (or each other)

1997 Dodge Ram 1500 rotor has a center bore diameter of only 3.09"

So long story short, I can't find any OE Ford or Dodge 17" wheels that'll bolt onto a Ford E-150 without modifications or serious safety concerns. Aftermarket wheels, like the Black Rock Series 997 Type 8 Matte Black Wheels 997795545 from Summit Racing have a Center Bore Diameter of 4.28" (108.71mm) so they'll certainly fit both Ford vans and Dodge trucks but all the weight is again on the studs (not the hub of the rotor). Not sure how the Dodges fit but Fords use the hub and have a large "return" stamped/machined into the wheels to tightly fit it. The Dodge 17" wheel I attempted to install also had this stamped flange but it was too small to fit my rotors.

 

[Bikersmurf]

I had a slight change of plans.

Gunna keep the stock wheels

Going to run moog 81368 springs, bilstein hd's front and rear and 245-75-16 tires.

Will give me a slight lift in front, still be "factory" but the 81368 springs are e250 replacement hd springs, or standard e350 springs (from what I can gather) ought to firm up the ride up front and provide a small lift.

If you want a heavier spring, I'd consider an E350 spring from a 7.3 Diesel in it... they could be too stiff though. I'm running around 3000 lbs on the front axle and 5500 lbs on the rear axle (before passengers and/or cargo).

1997 E350 Crestline Ambulance w/ 7.3 PSD.

 

[villageidiot327]

If you want a heavier spring, I'd consider an E350 spring from a 7.3 Diesel in it... they could be too stiff though. I'm running around 3000 lbs on the front axle and 5500 lbs on the rear axle (before passengers and/or cargo).

1997 E350 Crestline Ambulance w/ 7.3 PSD.

i have the 81368 springs installed and the van rides like it should. no changes in the rear with the exception of the bilstein shocks.

as for wheels, i went with vision d window wheels from summit, no issues in fitment, yes, they are not hub centric, but they center on the lugs with conical lug nuts anyways. no problems.

 

[WUzombies]

Those are too tall for an E-150 without some other changes. That moog Spring is what Weldtec runs in his kits but they really require the new tailing arm.

I have moog 81368 in my E-150, which are the tallest progressive coils you can run in a 150 without other mods. I changed the front coils and put in a set of "HD" leafs in the rear that changed from a stock 2-leaf to a 4-leaf. The hangers are slightly narrower than the 250/350 series so you can't direct swap. It set the rear up a little higher than stock, but fully loDed for camp the van doesn't squat nearly as bad and handles much more safely. Unladen the coils up front raised things about 2" and the leafs in the rear about 3".

 

[Raul]

I'm curious too. I have an '04 E150. BTW, I like the stance on your van. I ran across it on the Ford Trucks Enthusiasts van forum with the rear spring upgrade. Do you have a build thread somewhere?

Another question I have for you, or the OP, is what mileage are you getting with 265's. I'm still running the stock size tire on mine (and probably will for at least another year). I have 265/75/16's on my '03 Tacoma and would love to have that size on the van, but am curious about what kind of hit I'd be taking in mileage. Thanks

I am getting about 12 to 13 mpg (corrected for a 10% error on the odo with the bigger tires). I'll call my driving "spirited" or nowhere to go but trying to be there ASAP. I have the 5.4l engine with a 9.75" rear end and 3.75, (axle code 19).

I have not done any build thread. One day I may get some decent pictures and do one.

 

[Petrolburner]

Those are too tall for an E-150 without some other changes. That moog Spring is what Weldtec runs in his kits but they really require the new tailing arm.

Are you sure that is the same as the Skyjacker 184S that came in my WTD kit?

 

[Raul]

So long story short, I can't find any OE Ford or Dodge 17" wheels that'll bolt onto a Ford E-150 without modifications or serious safety concerns. Aftermarket wheels, like the Black Rock Series 997 Type 8 Matte Black Wheels 997795545 from Summit Racing have a Center Bore Diameter of 4.28" (108.71mm) so they'll certainly fit both Ford vans and Dodge trucks but all the weight is again on the studs (not the hub of the rotor). Not sure how the Dodges fit but Fords use the hub and have a large "return" stamped/machined into the wheels to tightly fit it. The Dodge 17" wheel I attempted to install also had this stamped flange but it was too small to fit my rotors.

The weight is not supported by the lip on the hub. That lip only helps centering and supporting the wheels before tightening the studs. The friction is what keeps your wheels in place. Studs work under traction once the right torque is applied. The conic shape of the studs will center the wheel as you tighten them in a start pattern. After market wheels with the required load capacity should be fine. They tend to be heavy though.

 

[Mwilliamshs]

The weight is not supported by the lip on the hub...

I agree that it's not ONLY the hub. It is the hub and the studs together. My intention is to maintain that shared relationship without leaving either out.

...That lip only helps centering and supporting the wheels before tightening the studs...

I disagree that the hub becomes inactive when the lug nuts are tightened.

...The conic shape of the studs will center the wheel as you tighten them in a start pattern...

I'm sure you meant 'star pattern' and I agree that's the correct method for tightening lug nuts but it's to distribute the clamp load among the lugs rather than centering the wheel.

...After market wheels with the required load capacity should be fine. They tend to be heavy though.

Should be fine is fine. Ideal is better.

Quoted Sean Phillips and Rim and Wheel Works in MA:

"Nearly all OEM Wheels are designed to be hub-centric. The automaker designs an OEM wheel to fit on a certain car or range of cars. The center bore of the wheel is sized to fit perfectly onto the axle of that car. This is a hub-centric connection, as the wheel is centered by it's connection to the axle hub. The lugnuts hold the wheel firmly to the mounting plate, but it is the wheel-to-axle connection that actually holds the weight of the car.

This is quite an important distinction, as the lugnuts are designed to handle lateral forces that push the wheel away from the mounting plate. The forces that the hub and center bore connection are designed to withstand – the weight of the car forcing downward and impacts forcing upward – are at right angles to the forces that the lugnuts are designed for."

The real reason cones are used on lugnuts is to help them stay tight through a wedgefit. It increases the surface area for the friction you discuss to act upon.

Quoted from Brian Turner, driving.ca contributor:

"...original equipment manufacturer (OEM) rims are hub-centric, and it's this contact point (between the hub and the center hole of the rim) that carries the weight of the vehicle. The wheel studs or lugs are designed to resist lateral forces that are experienced when the vehicle is cornering. They are not designed to carry the weight of the vehicle."

Quoted from Rickson Wheel Manufacturing:

"...The wheels are centered on a machined surface on the axle..."


If you really think lug centric is as good as hub centric would you suspend the full weight of your van by 20 9/16" steel bolts mounted in single shear? That's what you're saying.

 

[WUzombies]

Are you sure that is the same as the Skyjacker 184S that came in my WTD kit?

No, that's sort of random. Last time I talked to him he was using Moog CC880S springs, which were the stock replacement springs for the 7.3 350s, as I understand it. I traded some messages (on twitter of all places) with Moog and they confirmed my suspicion about coil length in a 150 and pointed me to the others, which I was considering after reading the specs of the different coils that would fit a 150.

 

[Raul]

The lugnuts hold the wheel firmly to the mounting plate, but it is the wheel-to-axle connection that actually holds the weight of the car.[/B]
Quoted from Rickson Wheel Manufacturing:

"...The wheels are centered on a machined surface on the axle..."

I've seen threads on this subject derail pretty quick so, please do not take offense on my opinions. There are a lot of misconceptions, even among professionals.

For the hub to support the weight of the vehicle, the clearance between the hub and the wheel bore should be zero or even pressure fit. If you try, before torquing up, you should see that there is a little bit of play, very little. If the above statement were true, you should see some rubbing on the mounting surface as with every revolution, the wheel will move to the support side of the hub. You do not see this because the axial force done by the bolts translates into friction that prevent the movement of the wheel (Same force you see on a clutch)

If you really think lug centric is as good as hub centric would you suspend the full weight of your van by 20 9/16" steel bolts mounted in single sheer? That's what you're saying.

As the bolts are not in sheer (you will sheer the bolts only when they are not torqued up), I would and I do. My wheels are aftermarket with a larger center bore. I do not load my van too much, but I do drive quite fast. After 25k miles with forest roads and wash board trails, the wheels are still there.

Again, this is just my opinion, take it with a grain of salt. To give a little bit of background, I am a Mechanical Engineer (This doesn't mean that I know it all, and there are bad engineers and you can not know if I am one of those)

 

[Mwilliamshs]

...As the bolts are not in sheer (you will sheer the bolts only when they are not torqued up)...I am a Mechanical Engineer (This doesn't mean that I know it all, and there are bad engineers and you can not know if I am one of those)

I've got one of them thar degrees mahself. If you don't know that wheel lugs are in shear, and single shear at that, uhm...I'm sorry.

 

[villageidiot327]

I've got one of them thar degrees mahself. If you don't know that wheel lugs are in sheer, and single sheer at that, uhm...I'm sorry.

i know they're in single shear, i also know the above quote is not directed at me, but.......

a single 9/16" grade 5 bolt has a shear strength of 17,892.00 pounds.

so yes, ill absolutely trust my van to 20 9/16" wheel studs, likely stouter than grade 5.

trailers get towed on a single 5/8" pin. yes, its in double shear, but ill still take my chances.

 

[Raul]

And here it is the derailment

It maybe counter intuitive, but there is no shear.

You do not use bolts under shear. At least you should not design under that premise. You use pins for that. Pins can have the end threaded, but the part under shear should be smooth like a pin. Have you ever seen marks on the hole walls of an aluminum rim caused by the stud threads pressing against them?

This is a short good thread on this matter. http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=224455 I share the opinion of GregLocock (towards the end) who claims to be a wheel designer. Also note that there are some other people expressing your opinion.

I appreciate your concerns about my ignorance but luckily you do not have to drive my vehicles and I do not drive yours so lets keep the discussion intellectually stimulant.