4 season Pop-up?

[davidv]

MayTag,

I have a Hallmark K2, and a wife with a low tolerance for cold and 2 backseat drivers. So far the coldest night we have experienced is 9 degrees and we only used 1/3 of tank of propane keeping it mid 60’s inside. We have also been in sideways rain and never experienced a drop inside the camper.

My 2 cents on price and customization of layout ( I spent a while in aircraft purchase and leasing). When I shopped there are a lot of less expensive options out there but when I looked at resale values as they aged they became almost worthless and the Hallmarks get over half of their original purchase price when 10 years old making them equal in cost to the less expensive brands. The 4wheel camper is an exception to this as they are relatively low cost and hold their value very well. When shopping that was my 2nd choice but at the end of the day they were 2 spartan for my co-pilot.

The higher end brands spend a lot of time on R&D and also make big investments in post sale service. The more time you spend in them it become more apparent how well thought out every nuance of the layout is. I know Mark at XPCamper has been perfecting his design inside and out for at least a couple of years. If you begin to alter the layout in throws off the service and cost model (cost of non-conformance is exponential) and with a forum like this one unhappy customer could cost them customers for years to come.

Here is pic of my short bed F250 and 8ft Hallmark.

 

[DirtyDog]

I have done a fair amount of winter camping in my FWC and it has worked out ok. FWC and ATC make some pretty high quality units overall and leakage in wet weather isn't much of an issue (within reason if you are going to camp in a near hurricane - well you know).

I think that the usability of a camper in winter weather is as much about the quality of the furnace system and the size and layout of the interior as it is about how leak proof the whole thing is. Most of the moisture in the camper is going to be tracked in on your feet and clothes, and in the form of condensation. The poptop walls generate a lot of condensation under these conditions and while toweling them off in the morning is helpful, if you are camping multiple days it is inevitable that the moisture situation will get worse every day since those wet towels need to be stored somewhere, wet clothes do not have an adequate place to dry out etc.

I like the look of the XPcamper for winter conditions because it has composite sides that are well insulated, there is a lot of usable interior room to arrange and dry out wet stuff, wet snowy clothes or boots can be stored in the shower. In addition there is a lot of outdoor storage where you could throw wet towels and leave them there until the trip is over.

But like anything its a matter of how much you want to spend for an improved product

Edit to add: one of my biggest complaints about FWC is the furnace system. IT pumps a lot of heat into a very small space, then shuts off for quite a while. The result is it gets very hot in the camper, then very cold, then very hot etc. I'd like to see them do something a little more innovative with the furnace. The worst though is when the furnace just refuses to work because the propane quits flowing - which seems to happen when I need it most - when the temperature has plummeted in the middle of the night. Never have been able to figure out why this happens - perhaps something in the tank valve is freezing since the tank itself is not insulated?

 

[homemade]

http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/rvs/2091567754.html

Something you can check out close by. Outfitter Apex

 

[pods8]

Most of the moisture in the camper is going to be tracked in on your feet and clothes, and pumped into the air from a propane furnace.

You confused me here, the normal FWC/ATC furnaces are heat exchangers and the propane combustion is isolated from the unit thus it shouldn't be introducing anything.

I like the look of the XPcamper for winter conditions because it has composite sides that are well insulated, there is a lot of usable interior room to arrange and dry out wet stuff, wet snowy clothes or boots can be stored in the shower, and the diesel furnace pumps out a dry heat that will significantly improve the ability to dry things out day after day. In addition there is a lot of outdoor storage where you could throw wet towels and leave them there until the trip is over.

I'm curious if the fabric over cab fairs differently that the sideliners of the other pop-ups in terms of condensation in really cold weather. Granted there is less surface area which will reduce the problem but if you really are going for gold I'm thinking the Alaskan folding hard walls seem more suitable.

Again on the furnace, I'm not seeing any dryness difference in the heat sources since they both are heat exchanger based with the combustion venting to the exterior. There are obviously other pro's and con's between the propane and diesel heaters but this doesn't seem to be one to me.

I think a key advantage of the XP would be if the wet stuff in the shower was still able to drain to the gray water tank w/o freezing concerns to get that moisture out of the rig.

Edit to add: one of my biggest complaints about FWC is the furnace system. IT pumps a lot of heat into a very small space, then shuts off for quite a while. The result is it gets very hot in the camper, then very cold, then very hot etc. I'd like to see them do something a little more innovative with the furnace.

I think the lower amp and BTU output units they offer now are about as good of a step in the right direct from the heat source as you can ask for. Should be slower temperature swings (and less amps too!), the main issue is with the sidewall design as you've already pointed out.

 

[Stan@FourWheel]

Hey DD

Have you tried switching out your thermostat ?

(a different brand or a digital ?)

I might help with the cycling of the furnace.


We have since switched over to the Atwood 12,000 btu furnce.

It seems to be alot better than the older 16,000 but Suburban furnaces.

The smaller Atwood furnace is quieter and draws a little less 12v power.

The lower btu's seem to produce a smoother, more even heat at night.


We are also playing around with some other furnaces that we install for campers going over seas.

Them are more expensive, but seem to be alot more effective.

We are slow to change sometimes here at FWC, but when we do it is usually in a positive direction.


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... I'd like to see them do something a little more innovative with the furnace ...

.



.

 

[DirtyDog]

You confused me here, the normal FWC/ATC furnaces are heat exchangers and the propane combustion is isolated from the unit thus it shouldn't be introducing anything.

Many people have told me in the past that propane heaters create a lot of condensation. FWC's do create a lot of condensation at night in cold weather so I assumed the statement on propane was correct. I don't know the actual mechanics of the situation.

Regarding the tent part of the XP - it has insulation built in and has a much smaller surface area than the FWC tent.

Stan - thanks I'll look at the possibility of a different furnace.

 

[davidv]

I've read a lot about the condensation issue on RV sites and the general consensus seems to be that the heater plays a very small part in the condensation equation and that it is human breath that is the largest cause. Sit in your car on a cold night for 30 minutes by yourself and you'll steam up the windows.

Has anyone tried a dehumidifier? Thinking about trying this [ame="http://www.amazon.com/NewAir-ADS-400-Mini-Dehumidifier-Car/dp/B000IEU3D2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1291748060&sr=1-1"]Amazon.com: NewAir ADS-400 Mini Dehumidifier With Car Kit: Home & Garden[/ame]

Stan, What digital thermostats are you guys using?

 

[Nimbl Vehicles]

g.



I'm curious if the fabric over cab fairs differently that the sideliners of the other pop-ups in terms of condensation in really cold weather. Granted there is less surface area which will reduce the problem but if you really are going for gold I'm thinking the Alaskan folding hard walls seem more suitable.

.

There are actually hard sides which snap in behind the soft wall if needed.

Also; the fabric used in the XPCamper is quite different than in the other pop ups. So far I never had any condensation problems.

Marc

 

[pods8]

Many people have told me in the past that propane heaters create a lot of condensation. FWC's do create a lot of condensation at night in cold weather so I assumed the statement on propane was correct. I don't know the actual mechanics of the situation.

Burning propane releases water so when using a stove or an unvented heater that water is released into the camper. That isn't the case with these types of heaters. As mentioned the condensation is mainly from moisture tracked in and human breath hitting the cooler sidewalls. It wouldn't matter if you had a diesel heater or not in the case.

There are actually hard sides which snap in behind the soft wall if needed.

Also; the fabric used in the XPCamper is quite different than in the other pop ups. So far I never had any condensation problems.

Marc

Sounds like you are on top of it to bolster up the insulation properties if needed already.

Yeah I've read its insulated some but the skeptic in me thinks in really cold conditions something more robust might be needed (which you've accounted for it appears). How cold have you been out it your rig?

 

[Wyowanderer]

Edit to add: one of my biggest complaints about FWC is the furnace system. IT pumps a lot of heat into a very small space, then shuts off for quite a while. The result is it gets very hot in the camper, then very cold, then very hot etc. I'd like to see them do something a little more innovative with the furnace. The worst though is when the furnace just refuses to work because the propane quits flowing - which seems to happen when I need it most - when the temperature has plummeted in the middle of the night. Never have been able to figure out why this happens - perhaps something in the tank valve is freezing since the tank itself is not insulated?

Before you change anything, look at your thermostat. It should have an internal anticipator adjustment that helps speed up or delay the furnace shutting off. Atwood furnaces should be set at 1.0, and can be adjusted as low as .48 without damaging the thermostat. You might try fooling with the adjustment before you buy anything. Lots of info below:


http://bryantrv.com/docs2/docs/hflamefurn04.pdf

 

[DirtyDog]

So it appears I was pretty uniformed about the moisture in propane heat so I have retracted my statement about that. However, I still find propane less than ideal based on problems with propane flow and leakage, which I have experienced quite extensively.

 

[pods8]

So it appears I was pretty uniformed about the moisture in propane heat so I have retracted my statement about that. However, I still find propane less than ideal based on problems with propane flow and leakage, which I have experienced quite extensively.

Yeah I've read your issues on that before, sorry to hear. I've had pretty good luck so far. *knocks on wood*

Are there any diesel heaters that aren't into the 4 figures? Makes it a harder pill to swallow for the budget conscious camper.

 

[maytag]

Interesting, here's a pic

It's not this one... the overlapping top section looked to be around 18"... and about 2 inches shorter then the over cab section

Glad there is some good info coming about, she is trying to direct me to a fully hard side (for the amenities and sealing) but I don't know if I could deal with the overall size and height to get to some camp areas...I think the trees would kill them

 

[DirtyDog]

Are there any diesel heaters that aren't into the 4 figures? Makes it a harder pill to swallow for the budget conscious camper.

No they are all pretty expensive and overall pretty impractical for most camper applications (unfortunately).

Wyowanderer, thanks I'll look into that.

 

[davidv]

DavidV, yours is a good looking camper. If you don't mind my asking -any regrets on not having a wet bath? And, I second your humidifier question; I've thought about one also.[/QUOTE]

In summer we are happy to shower outside so no regrets. In the winter we use it as a ski base camp and a indoor shower would be nice. But winter is when the humidity problems start so a little regret so I think I'd regret having the wet bath more.