400W Solar installation shopping list

[nycgags]

How does this setup look, where am I weak, what am I missing? Intention is to install 4 solar panels on top of Jeep, flat. Given I live in S Florida expected sun hours are 4.5 hours per day for my zone. Given the panels will remain flat on top of Jeep roof, assuming ideal conditions (no shade over any panel) but also understanding panels will not be angled at sun for perfect solar accumulation, what kind of energy can I expect to collect over a 4.5 hour sunny day?

Here is my list:

1 299 299 2500W inverter (Reliable 2500W High Compact Pure Sine Wave Inverter Dc to Ac Power Converter For Home Solar Power System (Black Iron))
4 180 720 Solar Panels (HQST 100 Watt 12 Volt Monocrystallin​e Flexible Solar Panel)
1 337 337 Solar Charge Controller (Victron BlueSolar 100/30 MPPT Charge Controller - 30 Amps / 100 Volts)
1 477 477 Apex APX12-260 12v 260Ah Group 8D AGM Battery
1 94 94 NOCO HM484 8D Commercial Grade Battery Box for Automotive, Marine and RV Batteries

1 960 960 Kargo Master Congo Pro Rack
1 290 290 arb 2500 roof rack awning

$3177 total

My 4 Door Jeep is already setup with a National Luna Solenoid, dual battery setup using my OEM Jeep battery currently as the "deep cycle" it is rated at 70Ah, looking to upgrade to the 8D AGM battery listed above.

8D battery listed above should be good for 260 x 12 x 60% = 1872 Watt-Hours
4x 100W 12V panels over 4.5 hours ideally can collect = 4.5 x 400 = 1800 Watt-Hours

So I think my battery is adequately sized. My current energy needs are not that great, just running a few accessories like dual-zone fridge/freezer, CB (on demand), 4G Booster (on demand), accessory lights (on demand), air compressor (on demand), 15A Angle Grinder (on demand), and charging various batteries.

 

[nycgags]

100 views, no replies, I guess I am on the right track..

 

[BPD53]

100 views, no replies, I guess I am on the right track..

You are on the right track..big time. That is a lot of solar and batteries!

 

[nycgags]

Ha thanks. My biggest concern is this guy:

2500W inverter (Reliable 2500W High Compact Pure Sine Wave Inverter Dc to Ac Power Converter For Home Solar Power System (Black Iron))

-not sure if I can post a link or not, but parenthesis have the exact name on Amazon for the product I am looking at (above) for $299.

For comparison you have:

$626.22 Samlex PST-2000-12 2000 watt 12V Pure Sine Wave Inverter
$814.99 Go Power! GP-SW2000-12 2000-Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter
$1623.90 Magnum 2000 Watt, 12V Inverter / 100 Amp Charger / 30 Amp Single Input/ Output, Pure Sine Wave

Why are the premium inverters above often 2-5 x the price of the cheapest options? Should I save up and invest in a more "premium" one? I don't want to overspend if not necessary.

descriptions below
Reliable 2500W

2500W (Peak 5000w) Pure Sine Wave Inverter
Input Voltage:12VDC; Output Voltage:120VAC; Frequency:60Hz
1 year warranty for all parts
All Big Imported Mosfet, Strong Driving Capacity
CE EMC approved

Pure Sine Wave Inverter 2500W
No electromagnetic Interference, designed for TV, radio, audio.
2500W FULL OUTPUT. True Pure Sine Wave
All Big Imported Mosfet, Strong Driving Capacity
Earth Connection for Both Inverter and PCB
Nice protections, Soft start, High stability and quiet performance
High quality digital display for AC output and DC input voltages
Suitable for household appliances, lighting, electrical tools and office equipments etc.
CE EMC approved
Parameter
Inverter continuous power: 2500W Inverter
surge power: 5000W
DC input volt: 12v
DC input range: 10~15v
NO Load Current Draw: 1.8A
Efficiency:85% ~90%
AC output volt: 120V
Waveform: Pure Sine Wave
Frequency: 60Hz
AC Regulation:3%
Low Voltage Alarm:10DC±0.5V
Low Voltage Shut Down: 9.5DC±0.5V
Over Load: shut off, recover manually
Over Voltage Shut Down:15.5V
Over Thermal:Shut Off Output Automatically
Start: soft start
Cooling Ways: Cooling Fan
Packing Type:Carton Packing

Samlex 2000W

High efficiency
Can be hard wired
Temperature controlled cooling fan - reduces energy consumption
Low interference
Wide operating DC input range: 10.7 - 16.5 VDC

This high efficiency DC-AC inverter converts 12 Volts DC to 2000 Watts of pure sine-wave AC power at 120 Volts, 60 Hz. The unit comes with pin-type battery cable lugs. Features include overload protection, low battery alarm / shut down, low idle power draw of less than 1 Amp. AC power is available from a NEMA-20R GFCI duplex outlet on the front panel. Safety certified to UL standards.

spec sheet > 85% efficiency
http://www.samlexamerica.com/documents/product-specs/12001-PST-2000-12-24-0216_Hrez.pdf

Go Power 2000W

2000 watt continuous pure sine wave inverter 12 volt input
4000 watt surge
2 GFCI protected outlets and hardwire port
Over voltage, under voltage and overload protections
2 Year warranty

Go Power! 2000-Watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter takes 12 volt DC battery power and converts it to an exact replica of AC houshold power. It is guarenteed to run any load within their wattage rangeand has a 2 year warranty. This inverter has two GFCI outlets and can use the GP-DC-KIT4 to connect to the batteries with ease. As long as the load is not greater then 2000 watt this inverter will run it and the GP-SW2000-12 can surge to 4000 watt as well as contains all instructions required.

spec sheet 85-92% efficient
http://gpelectric.com/files/gpelectric/documents/PDF/Specs_GP-SW2000-3000.pdf

Magnum 2000W

MS2000 Pure Sine Wave Inverter/Charger When you need a 2000 watt power inverter choose t he Magnum MS2000. This pure sine wave inverter is designed specifically for the most demanding mobile and off grid applications. This unit has a 100 amp charger plus a single input/output transfer relay. The MS Series is powerful, easy-to-use, and best of all, cost effective. Install the MS Series in four easy steps: simply connect the inverter's output to your distribution circuits or electrical panel, connect your shore power cable (AC) to the inverter's easy-to-reach terminal block, connect the batteries, and switch on the power. Weight: 45 pounds. The MS Series is ETL listed to the stringent requirements of UL/cUL 458 for mobile use and UL 1741 for off grid installationsInverter Specifications: Input battery voltage range 9 - 17 VDC Nominal AC output voltage 120 VAC Output frequency and accuracy 60 Hz +/- 0.04% Total Harmonic Distortion (THD) < 5% 1 msec surge current (amps AC) 50 100msec surge current (amps AC) 33 Features: See Specification Sheet for more details. Multiple ports: The MS Series provides multiple ports, including an RS485 communication port for network expansion, and a remote port. Accessible design: The extra large AC access cover with terminal screw block and 360 degrees DC connection terminals with covers make this inverter more accessible when it needs to be. Convenient switches: The MS Series comes with an on/off inverter-mounted switch with an easy-to-read LED indicator. Expanded transfer relay: 60 Amp transfer service is available on all models. Internal cooling 0 to 120 cfm variable speed drive using dual 92mm brushless DC fans. Mounting Shelf (top or bottom up) or bulkhead (vents up) Warranty: The MS Series is backed by a three-year (36-month) limited warranty.

Manufacturer : Magnum
Model# : MS2012
Input battery Input voltage range : 9 to 17 VDC
Nominal AC output voltage : 120 VAC ± 5%
Output frequency and accuracy : 60 Hz ± 0.4%
Continuous power output at 25° C : 2000 VA
Maximum continuous input current : 225 ADC
Inverter efficiency (peak) : 89%
Transfer time : 16 ms
Search mode : 7 watts
No load (120 VAC output) : 25 watts
Waveform : Pure Sine Wave

Charger Specifications:
Continuous output at 25° C : 100 ADC
Charger efficiency : 85%
Power factor : > 0.95
Input current at rated output (AC amps) : 15

General Features and Capabilities
Five stage charging capability : Bulk, Absorb, Float, Equalize (requires remote), and Battery SaverTM
Remote available (optional) : Yes, MM-RC or ME-RC
Internal cooling : 0 to 120 cfm variable speed drive using dual 92mm brushless DC fans
Overcurrent protection : Yes, with two overlapping circuits
Overtemperature protection : Yes on transformer, MOSFETS, and battery
Dual AC branch rated output breakers : Optional on the MS2000 and MS2012 - AC breakers in 15 or 20 amp ratings
Warranty : Three years
Dimensions (l x w x h) : 13.75" x 12.65" x 8.0"

 

[LeishaShannon]

Cheap HF inverter = high no load current, poor efficiency, and no peak power handling.
Proper LF inverter = low no load current, high efficiency, peak power handling for minutes not fractions of a second.

I wouldn't trust the specs on a cheap yumcha inverter as far as I could throw it... There is a W7 inverter thats quite popular on eBay here in oz thats specced at 20W no load , but actually uses closer to 60W

If you're not leaving it on 24/7 the no load current isn't a big deal but the peak power handling could be an issue with something like your angle grinder when starting it up.

Your calculations on solar energy yield look good for a sunny day, but it ain't always sunny so i'd be installing as much solar as you can fit

 

[Rando]

You plan looks fine - but my question would be, why so much? Your current loads certainly don't need that much power, and it is a huge amount of weight to add to a small vehicle like a jeep. If you really do want that much power, have you considered lithium? For the money you are spending you could get a lithium iron phosphate battery with the same useable capacity at 1/4 the weight.

As an aside - you may want to be a little careful with the semi-flexible panels. I currently have an HQST 100w panel, and while it has been fine for the past 8 months, there are lots of reports of failures on this style of panel. Certainly don't glue them down.

How does this setup look, where am I weak, what am I missing? Intention is to install 4 solar panels on top of Jeep, flat. Given I live in S Florida expected sun hours are 4.5 hours per day for my zone. Given the panels will remain flat on top of Jeep roof, assuming ideal conditions (no shade over any panel) but also understanding panels will not be angled at sun for perfect solar accumulation, what kind of energy can I expect to collect over a 4.5 hour sunny day?

Here is my list:

1 299 299 2500W inverter (Reliable 2500W High Compact Pure Sine Wave Inverter Dc to Ac Power Converter For Home Solar Power System (Black Iron))
4 180 720 Solar Panels (HQST 100 Watt 12 Volt Monocrystallin&#8203;e Flexible Solar Panel)
1 337 337 Solar Charge Controller (Victron BlueSolar 100/30 MPPT Charge Controller - 30 Amps / 100 Volts)
1 477 477 Apex APX12-260 12v 260Ah Group 8D AGM Battery
1 94 94 NOCO HM484 8D Commercial Grade Battery Box for Automotive, Marine and RV Batteries

1 960 960 Kargo Master Congo Pro Rack
1 290 290 arb 2500 roof rack awning

$3177 total

My 4 Door Jeep is already setup with a National Luna Solenoid, dual battery setup using my OEM Jeep battery currently as the "deep cycle" it is rated at 70Ah, looking to upgrade to the 8D AGM battery listed above.

8D battery listed above should be good for 260 x 12 x 60% = 1872 Watt-Hours
4x 100W 12V panels over 4.5 hours ideally can collect = 4.5 x 400 = 1800 Watt-Hours

So I think my battery is adequately sized. My current energy needs are not that great, just running a few accessories like dual-zone fridge/freezer, CB (on demand), 4G Booster (on demand), accessory lights (on demand), air compressor (on demand), 15A Angle Grinder (on demand), and charging various batteries.

 

[AndrewP]

It sounds way overdone to me too.

I did not see a calculation of your loads, but I'll bet they are no where close to the capacity of your panels. So your thinking is backwards. Calculate your loads, then design your system. I'll bet you could get by with less than half of your stated capacity, and a single standard house battery. Bigger isn't better in a small platform like a Jeep, even if it's a 4 door.

Plus, using 12 volt panels on a system this large is throwing money away. Use "24 volt" panels instead which are much cheaper per watt. And the frameless flexible panels are not durable, especially mounted directly to the roof where they will get too hot.

How about 1 rigid panel like this:

https://www.solarblvd.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_270&products_id=3092

320 watts for $159 is a killer deal, your MPPT can easily step this down to fit your system, and even this is likely far more power than you need.

I have very similar loads to what you describe and have more power than I need with a single 160 watt panel.

If you have $3000 burning a hole in your pocket, you can do this, but you could accomplish the same thing for a fraction of that, and end up with a lighter, better and more durable system.

edit:

And one other thing-You probably do not need the inverter. They are inefficient power hogs, and unless you have an RV, where AC appliances might be the norm, you can do everything you would do in a jeep without the inverter. If you do want to run an inverter, you want the smallest one that will serve your loads. a 2500 watt inverter sounds like way more than you need, and overkill is not better. It just wastes even more power.

And the 4.5 hours per day thing is misleading too. It just means you get peak power 4.5 hours per day, but you will find you still make significant power the rest of the day. You'll need to measure your system to know how much but it's more than you think. My 160 watt panel is still generating enough power (2.5 amps at 13 volts) to run my fridge until about 8pm in the summer.

 

[nycgags]

Rando/AndrewP all good points. My intention (I think) is to lead me to buy a trailer (something like the Alto) and I wanted to get my feet wet with Solar and everything that is involved with it.

The reason for the beefy inverter revolved around having enough power to run my 15 Amp Angle Grinder. But after using it once and having to lift the 20 lb heft and doing some more reading I think I can get away with 4.5 or 5" grinder instead of the 7/9" grinder I ended up originally getting. Grinders of this size are not recommended for automotive since you typically need a vice to use safely and they are more geared towards construction sites to cut through concrete etc... So now I am looking into a possible 7.5 Amp / 800 Watt Makita that actually outputs more RPM and has a soft start (my Kawasaki has a soft start as well). To handle the surge I have read differing claims of buying an inverter that can handle double the stated wattage needs to handling 5-7x the needs (which sounds extreme to me).

As far as Lithium batteries, I have looked into them and they are insanely expensive. The 260Ah 8D I listed earlier can be had for $477, a comparable Lithium-Ion battery is about (60% of 260Ah = 156Ah) $3200 unless these models are way overpriced? So I don't have the budget for one of those, if there are much cheaper Lithium-Ion batteries please provide a brand or link and I will definitely look into it!

http://www.getlithium.com/Standard-...-Car-Truck-Marine-RV-lithium-ion-battery.html

The whole 12v / 24v discussion is something I need to bone-up my knowledge on. I have been attracted to a lot of 24v products but I thought I needed to keep everything 12v for simplicity, you had mentioned my MPPT charge controller can step it down, I assume this is easy to configure?

I am guessing this charge controller would suffice?

Victron BlueSolar 100/30 MPPT Charge Controller - 30 Amps / 100 Volts
* For up to 440 watts panels @ 12 volts, or 880 watts @ 24 volts
* Excellent for boats, RVs - sealed and corrosion resistaant
* Outstanding maximum efficiency exceeds 98%
* 5-year worldwide warranty
* Compatible with Victron network and displays

As far as the rigid solar panel, I opted for the flexible since I figured they would be less likely to break when off-roading, not sure how much true off-roading I will be doing, perhaps I can buy a protective case to store the panel in the Jeep and then set it up when I make camp? Looking at the shipping costs $250 for 1 panel and the dimensions of over 6 feet long, and then the weight of +50 lbs, not sure how great of a mobile solution this is. I was interested in the flexible panels being used while driving to get some charge going into the accessory battery. Not sure how the National Luna trickle charge from main battery interacts with solar charging the battery at the same time, do I need a device to manage the two energy sources and can this be handled through my solar charge controller or would I be looking at a hybrid inverter or something totally different?

 

[Rando]

My point was that I don't see any reason that you need 260Ah of storage. Unless you will be doing a LOT of backcountry angle grinding, I can't see how you need any where near that amount of storage capacity, or that much solar. I think you would be fine with a 100Ah lead acid battery, and would be more than fine with a 100Ah LiFePO4, which can be had for < $1500 (although I have no experience and am not endorsing this brand):
http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/products/product/12v-100ah-lithium-ion-battery.php

I have also used rigid solar panels full time on the top of my Tacoma/Wildernest and pop-top land cruiser with no issues. I would have to say that the glass panels are much more rugged and reliable than the plastic panels. For system sizing reference, with a 160W solar panel and a 90Ah battery (so ~ 50Ah usable) is abel to keep my fridge and normal 'camping' loads running indefinitely.

Rando/AndrewP all good points. My intention (I think) is to lead me to buy a trailer (something like the Alto) and I wanted to get my feet wet with Solar and everything that is involved with it.

The reason for the beefy inverter revolved around having enough power to run my 15 Amp Angle Grinder. But after using it once and having to lift the 20 lb heft and doing some more reading I think I can get away with 4.5 or 5" grinder instead of the 7/9" grinder I ended up originally getting. Grinders of this size are not recommended for automotive since you typically need a vice to use safely and they are more geared towards construction sites to cut through concrete etc... So now I am looking into a possible 7.5 Amp / 800 Watt Makita that actually outputs more RPM and has a soft start (my Kawasaki has a soft start as well). To handle the surge I have read differing claims of buying an inverter that can handle double the stated wattage needs to handling 5-7x the needs (which sounds extreme to me).

As far as Lithium batteries, I have looked into them and they are insanely expensive. The 260Ah 8D I listed earlier can be had for $477, a comparable Lithium-Ion battery is about (60% of 260Ah = 156Ah) $3200 unless these models are way overpriced? So I don't have the budget for one of those, if there are much cheaper Lithium-Ion batteries please provide a brand or link and I will definitely look into it!

http://www.getlithium.com/Standard-...-Car-Truck-Marine-RV-lithium-ion-battery.html

The whole 12v / 24v discussion is something I need to bone-up my knowledge on. I have been attracted to a lot of 24v products but I thought I needed to keep everything 12v for simplicity, you had mentioned my MPPT charge controller can step it down, I assume this is easy to configure?

I am guessing this charge controller would suffice?

Victron BlueSolar 100/30 MPPT Charge Controller - 30 Amps / 100 Volts
* For up to 440 watts panels @ 12 volts, or 880 watts @ 24 volts
* Excellent for boats, RVs - sealed and corrosion resistaant
* Outstanding maximum efficiency exceeds 98%
* 5-year worldwide warranty
* Compatible with Victron network and displays

As far as the rigid solar panel, I opted for the flexible since I figured they would be less likely to break when off-roading, not sure how much true off-roading I will be doing, perhaps I can buy a protective case to store the panel in the Jeep and then set it up when I make camp? I was interested in the flexible panels being used while driving to get some charge going into the accessory battery. Not sure how the National Luna trickle charge from main battery interacts with solar charging the battery at the same time, do I need a device to manage the two energy sources and can this be handled through my solar charge controller or would I be looking at a hybrid inverter or something totally different?

 

[AndrewP]

I've taken my 160 watt panel rigidly mounted to the roof through the Rubicon trail, so they are pretty tough.

It currently looks like this:

I've since changed the rack a bit but you get the idea. With that and a house battery, I ran 2 Engle refrigerators this year for the week of the Rubithon event on the Rubicon trail. I had surplus power and absolutely no issues.

 

[nycgags]

AndrewP - very cool!

 

[AndrewP]

AndrewP - very cool!

Yep. And the panel is $1 per watt shipped:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-160-Watt-...199222?hash=item3f54f3bc36:g:SLMAAOSwVL1WFCik

It depends on your loads, but a perfectly functioning system isn't hard.

Mine is like this:

Engle #1 2.5 amps x 24 hours x 1/3 duty cycle = 20 amp hours
Engel #2 3.5 amps x 24 hours x 1/3 duty cyle = 28 amp hours
Ham radio on standby===== = 2 amp hours
Misc battery charging====== =4 amp hours

So all in, I'm near 50 amphours per day.
The 160 watt panel is capable of 60+ amphours per day and it's plenty in my sunny and reliable climate. That's why 400 watts seems so crazy. In a normal "Jeep like" vehicle, you don't need that much power.

Anyway, you may have more power needs, but calculate them out and see what you really need. If you're camping out of your Jeep, and basically your only load is a fridge, you may find your power consumption can be supplied by a much smaller system. Heck, even 100 watts does pretty well. Here is a link to my last year "system":

http://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/rubicon-solar-power-experience.867614/

 

[4x4junkie]

perhaps I can buy a protective case to store the panel in the Jeep and then set it up when I make camp?

I think that is really the way to go. A separate portable solar setup lets you park the vehicle (with your fridge running inside) in the shade rather than the hot sun, and also allows you to position your panel right at the sun, or even repositioning it as the sun tracks across the sky.

My setup is two 90Ah batteries in parallel (180Ah), 170W solar (2×85W, suitcase-style), and a SunSaver MPPT 15A controller. I have a 1500W inverter I use only on rare occasion, but I have used it with a Craftsman 4.5" angle grinder for a total duration of about 20 minutes along with another 30-40 minutes with a jigsaw w/o issue (spread over about 5 hours). I too have also had two 43qt fridges running together for 6 days straight (in addition to some LED campsite lighting) and it kept up with that load as well.



I agree about the flexible panels being fragile. My concern would be the solar cells getting damaged if something such as a branch, pine cone, etc. were to strike against the panel (silicon solar cells are very brittle, the thin cells can only bend so far before breaking). Rigid glass panels are generally made with tempered glass, they're a lot tougher than many people realize. They can be fairly heavy though.

 

[nycgags]

4x4junkie -

What brand panels? Seems hard to find that wattage for suitcase panels on Amazon.

 

[4x4junkie]

Mine were branded "UL Solar". I bought them on Ebay right about 5 years ago. I have not been able to find them again for a couple years now so I suspect they are not made anymore.
They were individual panels that I put together myself into a folding arrangement using some basic cabinet door hinges, a garage door handle, and a latch made out of a short piece of aluminum strip (bent 90° at the end) held with screws w/springs (I can get you some pics of this if you want). Pretty much any pair of rigid panels can be assembled into a "suitcase" with the proper hardware (much cheaper on a watts-per-dollar basis than buying a pre-made suitcase too).

Couple closer pics:
View attachment 153771
View attachment 153772

I've been tempted to put together another setup using a pair of newer 100W panels that have more efficient cells (the Renogy Eclipse 100W looks like it may be a nice panel). Some are only a few inches longer than my 85W ones, but are narrower, so are actually a little smaller overall (and possibly lighter), but with 30 more watts (not that I need more watts lol, but it's always nice to have a little bit extra if & when cloudy days prevail). I just need to find another good purpose for my (quite adequate) old panels first, then maybe I can justify another solar panel purchase.