Todd780
OverCamper
Oh... so that's where I went wrong. That explains a lot. Oops.
6 Family EMP Proof 36-38' Expedition Rig
- Thread starter bowpay
- Start date
luthj
Engineer In Residence
I actually looked into Electromagnetic discharge as part of a possible design project in school. Most vehicles are quite resistant to it, though some accessories may stop working. About 1 in 10 would cease to function, but most would stall, restart, and work fine.
Second, the actual physics of making a large EM discharge are pretty limiting. To make one powerful enough to create effects over an entire county (say 5-10k square miles), you basically need a nuclear weapon. And it needs to be detonated at a high altitude. Which requires a large missile.
Otherwise you can make a very small radius discharge with some pretty powerful, but very large, equipment. Usually involving high current rates through conductors, and explosives.
Anyways, the chances of effectively disabling even 50% of the vehicles in the USA, is less likely than an extra solar asteroid impacting the planet in my lifetime.
People find the post-apocalyptic idea somewhat exciting etc. If the prepers were really planning for it, they would dump all their modern tech. And basically revert to Amish style living. Or at least early 20th century living. Brush up on your animal husbandry, traditional farming methods. Start growing heirloom crops, and get really good at blacksmith work, sewing, and DIY construction with natural materials.
Second, the actual physics of making a large EM discharge are pretty limiting. To make one powerful enough to create effects over an entire county (say 5-10k square miles), you basically need a nuclear weapon. And it needs to be detonated at a high altitude. Which requires a large missile.
Otherwise you can make a very small radius discharge with some pretty powerful, but very large, equipment. Usually involving high current rates through conductors, and explosives.
Anyways, the chances of effectively disabling even 50% of the vehicles in the USA, is less likely than an extra solar asteroid impacting the planet in my lifetime.
People find the post-apocalyptic idea somewhat exciting etc. If the prepers were really planning for it, they would dump all their modern tech. And basically revert to Amish style living. Or at least early 20th century living. Brush up on your animal husbandry, traditional farming methods. Start growing heirloom crops, and get really good at blacksmith work, sewing, and DIY construction with natural materials.
shade
Well-known member
True.
An artisanal titanium foil hat is the proper attire.
See the Overland Journal Gear Guide for details.
quickfarms
Adventurer
But tin foil is useful for EMI shielding
Chorky
Observer
This is very interesting and one thing that I have thought about for many years even when I used to work for Ford way back in the day. Naturally, many critical components are 'shielded' but to what point? If computer circuits come packaged in static electric bags, then how vulnerable are other system components. I wonder if there is documentation somewhere that describes the actual requirements manufacturers have to preventing interference or electromagnetic disturbance. Back when electrically controlled systems started becoming a thing, there was big concern that even discharge from a faulty alternator, or a substation magnetic disturbance would cause system failures. I also remember the reasoning behind twisted and shielded wires to prevent inducing miniscule electrical signal into other wires paralleled going to a PCM with the concern that the slightest of electrical charge could cause system failures or faults - something that can be easily recreated via other means, such as a power surge which happens quite frequently in main lines. That could be a deciding factor of what newer vehicle one would be interested in getting.
Yeah, tolerance, acceptance, and ideas seem to only be one sided. Its a shame so many poke fun at a persons desires when they aren't the 'same' as the everyone else. Maybe the OP just wants EMP proof for other reasons? Maybe its their way of saying they want a mechanical truck. Nothing wrong with that. Heck, I wish my truck was all mechanical just because I dislike relying on electronics - but even then many friends/family think that is weird. Well..who cares. Sure, mechanical components can break, especially older ones, but relying on one possibly failing component is better than multiple in my book, especially if that reliance can leave you stranded somewhere undesirable - like 100 miles away from any services. Another benefit is easier, and typically cheaper, replacement of components - although as systems continue to aid sourcing parts will become more difficult. I imagine how difficult it can be to get a electrical circuit replaced that failed when out on tour of northern Canada, and finding someone who can reprogram things with the new component...
OP - you should check out Plan B Supply. They might have what your looking for. Not necessarily designed for apocalyptical stuff, but they are made with the intent of being resilient to extreme conditions to provide aid to others in natural disasters.
luthj
Engineer In Residence
Part of the reason most vehicles wont sustain permanent damage is due to the length of the wires involved. Most of the power from an EMP would be in longer wavelengths. Which means you need wires 40+ feet long to readily pick it up, and convert the EM energy to an electric charge differential. Microprocessors are vulnerable to shorter wavelengths (think microwaves). But those wavelengths are readily blocked by thin metal (like the mesh on your microwave door window). The complex microprocessors used in eletronics are vulnerable to voltage transients on the input/output wiring. Which is why all vehicle electronic modules incorporate protection circuitry to suppress these transients. Obviously its not foolproof, but provides a good level of protection against transient extreme events. For example a lightning strike 100ft away, or a high altitude nuclear detonation.
If the OP is interested in a vehicle that is EMP proof for other reasons (say simplicity of repair in the field, etc), There is nothing wrong with that. However, if they are focused on prepping for one of the conspiracy theory driven apocalypse scenarios... Well, this is a public forum, and ridiculous ideas will inevitably draw ridicule.
Literally the first thing to fail in an EMP scenario is the power grid. The long transmission wires will become charged with millions of volts, the resultant arcing will destroy switching equipment, and transformers. The complex fuel refining and distribution systems will not be far behind. You simply can't run a refinery without grid electricity. Fuel supplies would be depleted in a few weeks, and vehicles would rapidly become useless. If a significant portion of vehicles become immobile, major highways would be impassable anyways.
With no fuel food supplies will dry up in a matter of weeks as well. And you can't just plant more crops at the drop of the hat...
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GB_Willys_2014
Well-known member
One Second After was entertaining and interesting.
Entertaining in the same sense of the Road (McCarthy). Yeah, I like the genre.
Anyhow, unfortunately, Fortschen lost his magic touch with the sequel, One Day After. But, his thoughts on an EMP based disaster make for a good read.
en.wikipedia.org
Entertaining in the same sense of the Road (McCarthy). Yeah, I like the genre.
Anyhow, unfortunately, Fortschen lost his magic touch with the sequel, One Day After. But, his thoughts on an EMP based disaster make for a good read.
One Second After - Wikipedia
Chorky
Observer
Yeah I agree about the reliance on modern things in a total grid failure scenario. We would have much bigger problems than just vehicle transportation - but that's neither here nor there... If the OP and others want to plan for that that's fine... maybe they have other reasons for it. I just dislike how some poke fun at others for desiring to be prepared in a way that suits them.
Anywhoo.. back to the electrical charge. Thats interesting, my understanding of it must have been wrong. So that would make sense though how back in the day a solar weather, or failure at a distribution center could cause TV's, back when we all had antennas, and radio's and HAM's to have interference or even damage, where as other electrical devices, such as a computer, were fine. That's also interesting about the mesh of a microwave door. I had that idea, but honestly didn't know for sure what it was all about. Thanks for the info!! Intriguing. I still would be interested in seeing what measures manufacturers take to reduce potential for electrical interference. Especially as our world becomes more and more inundated with signals going every which direction!
I still dislike relying on electrical components in vehicles though... and know that others share the same feelings
JaSAn
Grumpy Old Man
I have a question for those smarter than me: would a lightning strike be a good first order approximation of what damage an EMP would do to a vehicle?
I have run across a number of documented lighting strikes on vehicles and the damage seems to be all over the map. One vehicle will only get scorch marks, another the radio stops working, another the headlights get fried, and another fries the ECM.
I recall reading some time ago that the military did testing on their vehicles, re: EMP and that most vehicles continued to be operational.
I have run across a number of documented lighting strikes on vehicles and the damage seems to be all over the map. One vehicle will only get scorch marks, another the radio stops working, another the headlights get fried, and another fries the ECM.
I recall reading some time ago that the military did testing on their vehicles, re: EMP and that most vehicles continued to be operational.
shade
Well-known member
Setting the death of the American empire aside, it's not hard to think of a natural disaster that has laid waste to a large urban area. If I lived in Phoenix, and the water supply was disrupted, I wouldn't want to stick around to see how nice five million people are when the tap goes dry.
GB_Willys_2014
Well-known member
This is the thing, 5 letters: water
I don't worry about the apocalypse, zombies, pandemics, vampires, clowns, whathaveyou, despite a voracious appetite for such fiction, but here in SE AZ I do worry about disruption of water distribution.
Water filters, purification tablets, and life-straws are all good tools.
I live guns and gadgets, and get the whole apocalyptic justification/rationalization thing ... but, it is about water, especially here.
luthj
Engineer In Residence
The Australian gold rush(s) was an interesting event, and desert survivalists (or prepers) can take many lessons from it. With water quite rare, every town would have a couple of stills to render water from salty brine (often from salt flats, etc). Horses were eschewed and instead camels were used. In fact the Afghanis camel masters were brought in to teach their camel skills, and care for the animals.
In very dry years the cost of water could increase by 100X! When they finally tapped the Great Artesianal basin, it allowed inland settlements to final grow, as reliable water was available.
en.wikipedia.org
In very dry years the cost of water could increase by 100X! When they finally tapped the Great Artesianal basin, it allowed inland settlements to final grow, as reliable water was available.
Great Artesian Basin - Wikipedia
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GB_Willys_2014
Well-known member
The American camel experiment:
www.smithsonianmag.com
Whatever Happened to the Wild Camels of the American West?
Initially seen as the Army's answer to how to settle the frontier, the camels eventually became a literal beast of burden, with no home on the range
www.smithsonianmag.com