9.4 mil acres in Southern Utah

[DesertRose]

I unfortunately do not have the time to adequately research the subject myself but I would like to chime in with a big "Thank You" to Kurt for all of the time and energy you put into keeping our existing trails open.

While I respect the opinions and appreciate the passion of both sides of this discussion I am bewildered to find such an argument on a site dedicated to Overlanding. Why not spend your resources battling ATV's as it is obvious that they are responsible for the majority of the abuse of the land? Is this issue all that different than the effort that got PWC's(jet skis) banned from many parks?

Actually, I do spend more time working on ATV regulatory issues.

And I'm equally baffled why there are forums devoted to 4x4 exploration and overlanding that aren't concerned about preserving places for wildlife and solitude.

 

[DesertRose]

But Wilderness doesn't stop stupidity,

I love that line, can I steal it?

nor does it fix the real issue at hand, rather IMHO it increases it.

I don't follow you here exactly - because, from my perspective, Wilderness is about non-mechanized use, period, and it's for wildlife habitat. But I think I know where you're coming from, that it's education and enforcement that can solve things, too.

while I agree they are the "majority" of the problem, I don't know that pointing the finger at them will do alot of good in the long run.

I guess I'm pointing fingers, from my personal experience with quads here in southern Arizona.

However, I'm also speaking from the knowledge (first-hand - I used to run a very pro-Wilderness non-profit down here) that the pro-Wilderness groups are getting really, really twitchy about ATVs (not overlander 4x4s) and their whole reaction (ie - to make big Wildernesses) is based on a fear that each year these yahoos encroach into unroaded lands. You say you haven't seen that, but I can tell you I have, all over southern Arizona and New Mexico.

Wilderness groups are extremely organized and extremely well-funded, with a lot of volunteers to flesh out the ranks. Our organization had over 700 (seven hundred) very active volunteers out doing road inventories on BLM and Forest Service lands for a massive GPS database - it's hugely powerful. So I can tell you I saw first-hand a huge amount of roads created by quads and bozos.

I know from personal experience that overlander 4x4 explorers don't have the kind of impact that the quad ATVs do - but the pro-Wilderness folks are just absolutely rabid about ATVs and stopping them. Legitimate users get caught in the battle.

Money spent on all this Wilderness effort (both the for and against sides) could have gone alot further by focusing on education and law enforcement. Sadly this doesn't seem to be a priority...

Goodness I agree! That's why I GOT OUT of the non-profit create-Wilderness schtick - my work now is very passionately about consensus, community-based compromise to create a future for people and wildlife.

Sorry to be so long-winded, but I truly appreciate all your hard work, thought, and articulation - I know it's really frustrating, I've been on both sides. But you have remained really thoughtful, and I appreciate that.

No hard feelings, I hope, since I'm way more out in left afield on this issue than you all are (but not a liberal, mind you!) - but you'll likely be getting some orders from me at your biz, as I really must get started fixing up my wonderful new project vehicle, an 84 FJ60 (soon to have an HZ diesel and 5-speed - soon as I find one!). And I just can't bring myself (as a girl) to shop very frequently at a certain supplier that features way too many under-clad, stupendously endowed ladies lolling over the Land Cruisers (don't all those studs and buckles scratch the paint!?).:sombrero:

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

I remember well our drives through the San Raphael Swell. I remember my disgust, my rage, my sadness at the extensive damage caused by moronic "enthusiasts," mostly of the ATV persuasion. In one formerly beautiful area every hummock that could be effortlessly ridden up by a three-year-old on a tricycle was covered in ATV and 4WD tracks.

The motorized-or-nothing crowd (which I don't believe includes anyone here) can criticize wilderness proponents all they like; at least we do not have a sizeable contingent apparently intent on destroying the thing we claim to love and want to preserve. The enemy in many, if not most, of these land battles in my opinion is not radical enviros, it is self-centered idiots piloting their internal-combustion vehicle of choice anywhere they please. As long as more responsible riders and drivers turn a blind eye to abuse, or try to minimize it, or expect someone else to fight it, so long will we have to struggle to keep open even legitimate 4WD areas on public land - that land that belongs to everyone, not just the "Hold my beer and watch this" crowd.

I'm convinced that scientists are going to discover an emission expelled by ATVs that instantly lowers the IQ of the rider by 50 points.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I love that line, can I steal it?

Sure, I use it all the time... its catchy eh? :beer:

No hard feelings, I hope, since I'm way more out in left afield on this issue than you all are (but not a liberal, mind you!) ...

None at all, I hope the same... Good dialogue (and light debate) is very healthy for all sides. I take bits and pieces of the opinons of others into mind everytime I think about Wilderness. I thank you for presenting your opinion on the matter. :victory:

Now in my ideal world... The mechanized and Wildnerness sides could sit down at a "summit" of sorts, controlled by 3rd party arbitrators. Address the issues one by one, agreeing on different sects of Wilderness, and agreeing to disagree on the others. They could agree to fight those ones in the future Seems we ought to get to "protecting" these areas today rather than in another 18 years (the original act was introduced in 1989)

Ideal I know...

 

[cruiseroutfit]

I remember well our drives through the San Raphael Swell. I remember my disgust, my rage, my sadness at the extensive damage caused by moronic "enthusiasts," mostly of the ATV persuasion. In one formerly beautiful area every hummock that could be effortlessly ridden up by a three-year-old on a tricycle was covered in ATV and 4WD tracks...

I'm not saying you can't find any instances of abuse. I drove hundereds of miles in the SR Swell last year alone, I feel confident the overal "damage" is very seldom in relation to the total amount of trails. Its there, but its minor IMHO...

Keep in mind... it is already illegal to drive an ATV off the designated trail in the SR Swell, what makes you think putting up a Wilderness sign is going to fix the existing problem. Now, if the ARWA passes, and all those ATV users have to use the lesser amount of available trails. Do you think that is going to solve the problem?

 

[DesertRose]

Keep in mind... it is already illegal to drive an ATV off the designated trail in the SR Swell, what makes you think putting up a Wilderness sign is going to fix the existing problem. Now, if the ARWA passes, and all those ATV users have to use the lesser amount of available trails. Do you think that is going to solve the problem?

I've been thinking about this, and in this particular Wilderness proposal case, I now have to agree especially after looking at all the maps again and seeing the overlays of the proposals. This landscape is so open, and it's so easy to create new roads there.

Having put together a couple Wilderness proposals for AZ, I am also of the opinion now, too, after listening to Kurt, and pouring over the maps, that SUWA is going for broke - they are proposing areas I would not think could possibly be protected from bozos. Many of the areas are bordered by well-used roads. Hmm.

Wilderness as Kurt said is only a designation and comes with no money for enforcement and education, heck probably not even for signs for years and years.

The Wildernesses I worked on here were really isolated already, and identified as core areas for 2 endangered species - Mexican gray wolves, and Jaguars. Two species worth protecting, in my mind! The use issues were mininiscule in comparison to Utah.

Sorry Kurt, it's going to be a long battle - and while I still am a Wilderness proponent at the end of the day, I'm also a pragmatist and feel you're right, everybody should sit down in arbitration and hash it out and find a solution, like what AZ is trying to do - license and tax ATVs so that money can be used on education, enforcement, and trail maintenance.

Unfortunately, a few radical enviros here are even trying to kill that effort because they 'don't think it's tough enough.' Well bugger them, I say, it was a huge effort where people really did sit down and work it out and compromise.

 

[DesertRose]

This is going to sound a little cold hearted... But I personally have very little love for ATVs. Especially for quads, unless actually needed on a farm... Using quads recreationally to me is most stupid in my opinion.. Dirt bikes are pretty cool, but man do they tear things up. Of the 10 or so times I have seen times where people were doing things they shouldn't on the trail (IE not on the trail, tearing up cryptobiotic soil) it is usually by dirt bike users. Just Friday one came zooming by us a good 15 feet off the trail, thinking he was being nice by bypassing the trucks on the trail..


I can/do understand how unity helps a lot but these guys and some of the more violent and/or reckless off roaders with bigger engines and who roll a lot, etc, seem to be much more of the problem. I think if these guys didn't exist, things might be a lot more easy for us. Even Edward Abbey & such drove a jeep.. ..and used it..

I agree, Andre! but it's not the machine it's the user.

Our home is surrounded by wildlands and a number of roads popular with ATVs and dirt bikes and buggies. We battle these bozos on a weekly basis - going through our fences, past no trespassing signs, tearing up land.

But there are also sane users who are just out exploring. There's an adorable club at a remote RV campground to the south of us that comes by in winter about 1x a week - about 10 quads, putting along, the guys in front, the wives bringing up the rear. I love them. We've had dirt bike clubs come in, but they are pretty good about keeping speed down and being polite. It's the rest that are the problem.

So, it's not the machine - it's how it's used. Unfortunately we're seeing younger and younger users on their mini ones learning how to be bozos . . . Jonathan calls them redneck larva . . . :ylsmoke:

 

[Jonathan Hanson]

Keep in mind... it is already illegal to drive an ATV off the designated trail in the SR Swell, what makes you think putting up a Wilderness sign is going to fix the existing problem

Kurt, I hear this argument all the time, but it's a total syllogism. It's like saying we shouldn't have laws against murder, since murders happen all the time anyway. Furthermore, you did what I mentioned previously about misdirecting the blame. You tacitly admitted to, and accepted, the abuse that the area suffers, but rather than direct some idea for a solution at the people causing the abuse, your reaction seems to be to not only accept it, but to use it as a reason not to try to protect land from further abuse.

Arguments such as this are an open invitation to every ATV rider in the country to get out and ride all over the landscape. "Well, we can't stop them from riding there anyway, so there's no point in protecting it."

What we need is more funding for enforcement to nail those who flaunt laws and make the rest of us look bad. We also need more backbone among our own community, so when we see someone abusing the land we don't just shake our heads, we go over in a very large group and tell them what jerks they are. I suppose firebombing their machines wouldn't be kosher, but it's tempting.

I don't agree with every wilderness proposal ever made. But I do understand why the people who make the proposals do so.

 

[Desertdude]

"syllogism" had to hit the dictionary on that one :bowdown:

Quick observation;

Just getting back from a week in SE Utah. I was impressed at how much has not changed in the ten years since our last visit. Many of the remote areas connected to with pavement are still clean and remote. Many of the old mining roads have been abandoned, melting slowly, and disappearing back into the landscape.

We were talking on this trip and wondering what the difference was between a Wilderness Area and a designated Monument Area?

 

[calamaridog]

I believe Wilderness proposals would be much more successful if they were tied into a larger effort to actually fund and manage federal lands.

Such efforts must include OHV areas and funding for enforcement.

As I've pointed out before, the number of law enforcement officers assigned to BLM and Forest Service lands is perhaps 10% of what they need. These agencies are by far the most underfunded law enforcement agencies in the nation.

I also have no doubt that Wilderness areas can coexist near OHV areas. We have the seldom visited Pine Creek and Hauser Wilderness, approximately 21,000 acres, right next to the Corral Canyon OHV area in San Diego County.

Corral Canyon are is not an "open" riding area, but there are mixed use trails combined with ATV only trails.

 

[cruiseroutfit]

Kurt, I hear this argument all the time, but it's a total syllogism. It's like saying we shouldn't have laws against murder, since murders happen all the time anyway. Furthermore, you did what I mentioned previously about misdirecting the blame. You tacitly admitted to, and accepted, the abuse that the area suffers, but rather than direct some idea for a solution at the people causing the abuse, your reaction seems to be to not only accept it, but to use it as a reason not to try to protect land from further abuse.

I'm too lazy to look up syllogism...

But, lets compare apples to apples... It would be like creating a NEW law for murder, spending millions and millions of dollars telling everyone why a new law is needed, rather than spending a penny of that money on EDUCATION and ENFORCEMENT of the current laws. There is already a grossly underfunded USFS & BLM enforcement staff here in Utah, I know as I work with them on projects on a regular basis... literally. They will be the first to tell you that a Wilderness designation isn't going to get them more money for education/enforcement.

I have never admitted to any of the "damage", I use quotations in every case of the word "damage" and "impact" as I feel it is all relative to the perspective of the reader. As mentioned I don't beleive our sport has a negligible "impact" on the ecosystem, and "damage" is very minor and easily repaired.

I have never said let it stand as it is... if you read anything I wrote, or knew anything about me, you would know I am all for EDUCATION and ENFORCEMENT. I have spent countless hours doing Trail Patrol, service projects, and just standing at a trailhead handing out information and maps. Please don't paint me as the average apathetic 4x4 users. I spend at least 2 hours promoting responsible 4x4 use, stewardship, advocating for access for every hour I spend on the trail. Keep that in mind when you characterize me.

...What we need is more funding for enforcement to nail those who flaunt laws and make the rest of us look bad.

I've been saying that all along...

"Money spent on all this Wilderness effort (both the for and against sides) could have gone alot further by focusing on education and law enforcement. Sadly this doesn't seem to be a priority..."

...We also need more backbone among our own community, so when we see someone abusing the land we don't just shake our heads, we go over in a very large group and tell them what jerks they are. I suppose firebombing their machines wouldn't be kosher, but it's tempting.

Agreed... its starting to happen here in Utah. There have been several recent cases where users took pictures of illegal 4x4 use, the information was passed onto the USFS and actions were taken. We (the U4WDA) have an "illegal acts" reporting system, where we work with the USFS/BLM to make sure the perps at a minimum get contacted. Last year during a service project we had a rig pull right past 20+ rigs and at least 5 FS rangers, and driving right past a no-travel sign into a lake. The USFS agreed to waive the ticket if the guy joined the U4WDA so he could get EDUCATED.

For kicks... the mission statement of the U4WDA, an organization I spent 150+ hours a year working with.

"The Utah 4 Wheel Drive Association is dedicated to protecting access to public lands through education and stewardship. We promote responsible use of 4x4 vehicles on our public lands, and equal access for all responsible user groups."

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

Main Entry: syl·lo·gism
Pronunciation: 'si-l&-"ji-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English silogisme, from Anglo-French sillogisme, from Latin syllogismus, from Greek syllogismos, from syllogizesthai to syllogize, from syn- + logizesthai to calculate, from logos reckoning, word -- more at LEGEND
1 : a deductive scheme of a formal argument consisting of a major and a minor premise and a conclusion (as in "every virtue is laudable; kindness is a virtue; therefore kindness is laudable")
2 : a subtle, specious, or crafty argument
3 : deductive reasoning

 

[cruiseroutfit]

... deductive reasoning

Hmmm, I would argue that it wasn't my "deductive reasoning" that was flawed

 

[DesertRose]

Hmmm, I would argue that it wasn't my "deductive reasoning" that was flawed

Not at all - I'd say you deducted right. In Utah at least, it appears that education and stewardship are what's really needed.

I'm impressed by the Utah 4-Wheel Drive Association - really impressed. Great job, great website, great emphasis on volunteerism, stewardship, action, and just getting out there!

How many individual members do you have, and how many club memberships?

 

[cruiseroutfit]

...How many individual members do you have, and how many club memberships?

We have ~700 individual members (up from just 65 :yikes: 3 years ago), and ~25 member "clubs" that have 1000's of members in the state of Utah. Things are really rolling for us.... our National Public Lands Day brought out over 300 volunteers last year, all 4x4 enthusiasts, total hours were ~ 2000 for one day This year we are hoping for 500 volunteers on a single Saturday