Airing down

CampStewart

Observer
Old timers used to splash some water on the road and drive through it and lower the air pressure until the contact patch matched the tire tread width. This for street driving. There are many variations such as some sort of marker on the tire, etc.
 

1stDeuce

Explorer
For those really concerned that you're going to push a bead off if you air down, the Seek Adventure lads did a little experiment for you.


In summary, they managed to push sand into the bead at 6psi on a decently heavy truck with what look like non-LT tires doing figure 8s pretty aggressively in the sand. The bead technically still didn't come off. After cleaning the sand out and airing back up, they drove around the dunes the rest of the day at 6psi without issue. They note that this is quite a bit lower than they needed to be, and I believe referred to it as "extreme emergency" pressure. They also used starting fluid to seat the bead, which is usually only necessary if you have too wide a wheel for the tires you're running, or a really slow compressor with no reservoir to pull from... A properly sized tire will usually have no problem re-seating as you add air...

Of course the ideal pressure would be different for different size vehicles and tires. This is a point many of you seem to be overlooking with statements like "I never go lower than 15psi". Thats nice for you, but useless without context. For example, I consider 15psi close to "extreme emergency" pressure for my 2500 with a truck camper on the back, but for my TJ, 15psi is the starting point for ANY offroad travel, and "extreme emergency" is like 4-5psi. The weight difference in the vehicles make the tires look about the same at each vehicles emergency pressure. I In this case, the tire size on both vehicles is the same, or close enough. (255/80R17's on the truck and 255/85R16's on the Jeep.)

Thus saying "Never go below 15psi" is probably excellent advice for a loaded 3/4 ton truck on only slightly oversize tires, but TERRIBLE advice for a Wrangler on the same tire size. That's one reason the 1" steel bar method from a few pages ago is probably a good experiment for many of you. Using that method, I bet most of you find that a good starting "offroad" pressure is around 50% of the ideal street pressure for the load condition. Extreme emergency pressure is going to be about 1/3 of "offroad" pressure, or 1/6 of street pressure.

And barring extremerock crawling, or TV commercial style driving, you're probably going to have a very hard time getting bead to push off the rim if you adhere to the guidelines above.

Now where's that beating-a-dead-horse emoji?? ?⚰?
 
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RoyJ

Adventurer
Thus saying "Never go below 15psi" is probably excellent advice for a loaded 3/4 ton truck on only slightly oversize tires, but TERRIBLE advice for a Wrangler on the same tire size. That's one reason the 1" steel bar method from a few pages ago is probably a good experiment for many of you. Using that method, I bet most of you find that a good starting "offroad" pressure is around 50% of the ideal street pressure for the load condition. Extreme emergency pressure is going to be about 1/3 of "offroad" pressure, or 1/6 of street pressure.

Nicely put. It's like saying I never drive over 75 mph. In a semi, Mog, M35, excellent advice. A Corvette on the freeway?

I tried 25 psi on my old Dodge 2500 w/ Bigfoot, 9600 lbs, 265/75r16, I was dangerously close to pinching a tire on rocky terrain. My buddy's 3rd gen 4runner, on 285/76r16, you could barely tell it was aired down at 18 psi.
 

LandCruiserPhil

Expedition Leader
Nicely put. It's like saying I never drive over 75 mph. In a semi, Mog, M35, excellent advice. A Corvette on the freeway?

I tried 25 psi on my old Dodge 2500 w/ Bigfoot, 9600 lbs, 265/75r16, I was dangerously close to pinching a tire on rocky terrain. My buddy's 3rd gen 4runner, on 285/76r16, you could barely tell it was aired down at 18 psi.

Give my 1” bar system a try. It takes in consideration type of tire, size and weight. The vehicle pictured is 10700lbs on 37” LT tires. Using our system it should a safe air down to 25.1 psi
8440E1EC-078D-4556-A21A-EFF128F0A9BD.jpeg2407DFF6-12BB-4C12-B2F5-827A1FEA8316.jpeg
Next is a ~9500 lbs on 35,s the system shows 21psi. We did lower the pressure to 18psi on the playa with positive results.
EE11C3EB-03F0-4A70-B7C7-3046E3B9287A.jpeg

This is the risk you run when you don’t air down. The white 80 series is at 12.5 psi with excellent results on the playa.

8761140B-5C98-424D-A595-9E7953E0EBD2.jpeg
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Give my 1” bar system a try. It takes in consideration type of tire, size and weight. The vehicle pictured is 10700lbs on 37” LT tires. Using our system it should a safe air down to 25.1 psi

Yes, I read about that on your posts in the past. What I like - it also takes into account how stiff the sidewall is - tires like the Toyo M/T would naturally run at a lower psi than say an LTX.

I believe it was you that tried another member's suggestion of airing down to achieve a 25% loss in sidewall height. But with your stiffer tires, it had to run absurdly low (5.5psi?) pressure to achieve that.
 

Oilbrnr

Active member
I believe it was you that tried another member's suggestion of airing down to achieve a 25% loss in sidewall height. But with your stiffer tires, it had to run absurdly low (5.5psi?) pressure to achieve that.

It was Phil, with the 80 series pictured above.

My PW, also pictured above, I'd kinda came to the 21psi by trial and error/seat of pants over the past two years with my tires and truck. I tried Phil's method prior to going on that Mexico trip with him at home. It confirmed ~21 gave rubber contact on each side of the 1x1 steel tube. This pressure had been good for varied off-road desert use here in the Southwestern US. However, sand was one of those things that we found that the truck needed a little more experimentation and testing. I actually ended up at 16 by the third day.

When I returned, I scaled the truck, full of fuel and one jerry of water but otherwise empty of gear, so no food/clothing/other small camp items. And I was at 4560frt/4700 rear for a total of 9,260

In the end, the take away is that the steel bar (or wood) gives a good starting point, and then adapt a few pounds either way depending on terrain and distance. He and I also thought about taking an infrared heatgun along to monitor temp changes. More from curiosity than anything else.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Going to place a bet that my tires will achieve touchdown around 30 psi. Mine are 2" narrower than your 35x12.5s, and we're within a couple hundred lbs of each other. Off topic but amazing how much these modern trucks weigh, and for a good reason, every component is built much tougher than my 2nd gen.

We know narrow tires elongates more than wider tires when airing down, and get flotation via a ski type of footprint. The more the elongation, the earlier the tire wraps around the 1" bar.

That's why I like this method, it takes into account so many factors. In an extreme example, say 235/85 pizza cutters on a 9000 lbs rig, the tires will probably touch down at 40 psi. And the footprint @ 40 psi will be similar in area to a 265/75 @ 30 psi, and 35x12.5 @ 21 psi.
 

Oilbrnr

Active member
Last year I somewhat reluctantly went to OX West, mainly since it is in my hometown. Phil was there with a vendor and I hadn't been in a few years so I drug my son and dog with for the RTT-fest. (can't say I'll go back again anytime soon, but I digress).

General Tire was there with their big semi-truck and the usual tire give-away promo stuff. You know, give us all your info and you might win four tires. However, they were also saying that one of their tire engineers was there to speak about off-road questions/info/whatever. I asked to speak with him in regards to guidelines on how long specifically they felt you could run on lower pressures. Specifically their X3's which I've have on the PW and their older Red Letters which I had on my 80 series. They said he was unavailable to speak personally. Usually I'd say OK, but since I work for a rather large retailer of their product, I named dropped and Tony came out and talked with me.

Much of what he said is what he told Jeff in this video up to about the 3 min mark:


He did add that run them through the sections you need to aired down, but get them back up as soon as you can, and really pay attention to long stretches of higher speed (think 40ish mph) runs mainly due to heat generation. That to me is what can be tough to judge. Corrugation is just a killer on your rig and if you run long stretches aired down to soften the ride it can kill the sidewalls. I did that once on a set of DuraTrac's coming in/out of Toroweep when my truck was much lighter, ie no FWC. Now that said, DuraTrac's are known for their weak sidewalls. I felt it the minute I was back up to 60 psi running down the highway. Truck was squeamish as all hell.

Just for fun, this is a short clip of screwing around on the beach. I had some hesitation thinking of loosing a bead, but didn't even after several undocumented donuts. I was still at 21 here, but the next day did the same thing at 16.

 

Oilbrnr

Active member
Going to place a bet that my tires will achieve touchdown around 30 psi. Mine are 2" narrower than your 35x12.5s, and we're within a couple hundred lbs of each other. Off topic but amazing how much these modern trucks weigh, and for a good reason, every component is built much tougher than my 2nd gen.

Agreed. (assuming by 2nd gen, you mean RAM)

Per the placard my GVWR is 8510 with a payload of 1448 so I believe the curb weight stock was 7062.
 

RoyJ

Adventurer
Agreed. (assuming by 2nd gen, you mean RAM)

Per the placard my GVWR is 8510 with a payload of 1448 so I believe the curb weight stock was 7062.

I believe the PW is one of the most under-rated trucks, it's even more "over built" than a LC (hope you won't take offense as you own both).

Post 2014, it uses the same 9.5/11.5 AAM axles as a non-Asin dually, the same 50kis frame (slightly modified for rear coils). Essentially, a platform that's rated for 14k GVW, but de-rated only due to softer springs. It's one of the few trucks I'd feel completely safe going over OEM GVWR, and GAWRs, up to whatever a SRW 3500 is rated at.

Was hoping the engineer would give some numbers, like "when aired down to 50% the psi based on proper the inflation table, speed must be limited to 25 mph". But like you said, it can be tough to judge, so we'll have to rely on common sense. Really nice hearing technical explanations like altering the designed flex points on a tire carcass can cause deterioration, probably due to ply delamination, hence the squirminess.

Airing up as soon as speeds pick up is the key, hence why I have an air compressor addiction - I own 8 12v compressors! Phil's Puma posts way back in the day inspired me to get one, and it's still my main unit on the camper truck, as I don't trust anything else for 80psi air-ups + a friend's truck, in the bush. I did get a pair of Viair 480Cs, which will put out a lot more CFMs at higher psi. But even though they're 100% duty cycle, I still plan on using a Delta server fan to cool the cylinder / heads.
 

Happy Joe

Apprentice Geezer
Crazy advice▲
1st rule in safe offroad travel air down

...That's not how I travel;
IMO; First rule for people with less experience or vehicles that are not modified for optimum safety and traction;
Bring a sensible, well experienced friend in a well set up vehicle so they can guide, help, instruct (& possibly help recover) you/your vehicle... If one or more tires spin its an indicator that upgrades are needed.

In my experience (around 40 years off road, in many vehicles, on/in most terrains), normally; for stock and near stock (average) vehicle (AWD or 4wd) airing down is a band-aid attempt to make up for the lack of traction developed by the less good (street/all terrain) tires that came on the vehicle or were selected by folks who would rather have quiet ride than traction or have been convinced that some tire gives longer life, (again at the expense of traction).
Airing down has long been the cheapest way to get a traction gain; I do not dis-recommend it; but to imply that airing down is some how safer is not something that I would do.
(The traction gained could get a neophyte into a situation that is more than they are prepared to safely do, IMO)... loose/slippery downhills are one possible exception and an incentive to use at least aggressive tread, medium traction tires, i.e. BFG mud tires or similar, for example.

The experienced travelers in well set up vehicles will sometime air down to increase flotation or/tire footprint in soft terrains, with good effect.

The very difficult to extreme trail crowd normally has the experience, safety equipment and vehicles that are good enough to make airing down a method to gain that last few percent of traction necessary to make the obstacle or roll/flop trying (not a big deal; after the first couple of times for these guys/girls, put it back on its tires and keep on wheeling).

Airing down is not a fix for poor/unsafe vehicle prep/driving techniques/experience ... nor lack of common sense, IMO.

Enjoy!
 
Last edited:

JPaul

Observer
...That's not how I travel;
IMO; First rule for people with less experience or vehicles that are not modified for optimum safety and traction;
Bring a sensible, well experienced friend in a well set up vehicle so they can guide, help, instruct (& possibly help recover) you/your vehicle... If one or more tires spin its an indicator that upgrades are needed.

In my experience (around 40 years off road, in many vehicles, on/in most terrains), normally; for stock and near stock (average) vehicle (AWD or 4wd) airing down is a band-aid attempt to make up for the lack of traction developed by the less good (street/all terrain) tires that came on the vehicle or were selected by folks who would rather have quiet ride than traction or have been convinced that some tire gives longer life, (again at the expense of traction).
Airing down has long been the cheapest way to get a traction gain; I do not dis-recommend it; but to imply that airing down is some how safer is not something that I would do.
(The traction gained could get a neophyte into a situation that is more than they are prepared to safely do, IMO)... loose/slippery downhills are one possible exception and an incentive to use at least aggressive tread, medium traction tires, i.e. BFG mud tires or similar, for example.

The experienced travelers in well set up vehicles will sometime air down to increase flotation or/tire footprint in soft terrains, with good effect.

The very difficult to extreme trail crowd normally has the experience, safety equipment and vehicles that are good enough to make airing down a method to gain that last few percent of traction necessary to make the obstacle or roll/flop trying (not a big deal; after the first couple of times for these guys/girls, put it back on its tires and keep on wheeling).

Airing down is not a fix for poor/unsafe vehicle prep/driving techniques/experience ... nor lack of common sense, IMO.

Enjoy!

I can agree and appreciate most of that, but I like not having my vehicle beat the snot out of me on anything rougher than a recently smoothed NFS road. Unless you're running extremely nice and expensive shocks with well tuned springs you'll want to not only slow down but also air down to keep your rig from not just beating you to a pulp but itself as well.

Airing down isn't just for traction, it's also to soften the impacts of a rough trail. And that isn't just so that you can go barreling down the trail at high speed. In my experience (which granted isn't as much as yours), unless you crawl around at 10mph (or slower for some trails) all the time, keeping tires inflated to highway pressures will result in excessive fatigue, strained muscles and joints, decreased safety and handling (caused by the vehicle bouncing all over the place due to a combination of too much speed and too much pressure in the tires, though too little can also result in unsafe handling at higher speeds than the pressure is meant for) as well as damage to the vehicle as a whole due to stresses it wasn't designed to handle, shock fade and excess wear, increased spring wear, etc, etc.

While passenger tires shouldn't be aired down very much, if at all, due to much weaker construction than beefier LT and offroad tailored tires, 5psi less than street is probably enough to noticeably decrease ride harshness while offroad without overly increasing the risk of sidewall damage. When running heavier duty tires designed primarily for offroad use (MT's, aggressive AT's, and even decent AT's) you can air down more to not just increase traction but also help lessen impacts to a more manageable rate for the shocks (and your body) to handle.

That being said, finding appropriate pressures for your rig and the terrain you are covering is important. Keeping the sidewalls from overheating is critical to properly airing down, as my understanding is that it's the heat from repeatedly flexing that ultimately kills them, more than just the flexing by itself. The lower the pressure you use, the more the sidewall flexes, so the slower you need to go to keep the sidewalls from overheating and becoming damaged. At low pressures if the speed is low the rate the sidewall flexes is overall lower which is why generally speaking you can safely lower tire pressures without damaging the tire. For example, 15psi at 20mph (for my rig and tire combo) is just fine and likely doesn't wear the tires out any more than keeping them at highway pressure and driving 80mph. A good method I've seen is to lower pressure and drive for a bit. Then get out and feel the sidewalls to see how warm they are. They should not feel hot or even overly warm. If they are the pressure is probably too low for the terrain and speeds you are going which is causing the sidewalls to flex too much and heat up. You'll need to either increase the pressure or slow down.

Also, lower pressures allow the tread and sidewalls to deflect more when pressed against sharper objects like rocks and sticks which helps with preventingpunctures and other damage. Cooper tires did a good video demonstrating this with three of their tires, a Highway Tread (HT), an AT, and a MT. The lower the pressure used the more times each tire could be run over a spike without being punctured. Obviously there was a huge difference between the HT tire and their AT, and an even bigger one with their MT. But even the HT was able to withstand the spike better at lower pressures.

But, if you like having your teeth and every bolt in your rig rattle as you go down a trail, by all means keep them fully inflated. You don't *have* to air down while offroad, but I would strongly suggest it.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk
 

LandCruiserPhil

Expedition Leader
...That's not how I travel;
IMO; First rule for people with less experience or vehicles that are not modified for optimum safety and traction;
Bring a sensible, well experienced friend in a well set up vehicle so they can guide, help, instruct (& possibly help recover) you/your vehicle... If one or more tires spin its an indicator that upgrades are needed.

In my experience (around 40 years off road, in many vehicles, on/in most terrains), normally; for stock and near stock (average) vehicle (AWD or 4wd) airing down is a band-aid attempt to make up for the lack of traction developed by the less good (street/all terrain) tires that came on the vehicle or were selected by folks who would rather have quiet ride than traction or have been convinced that some tire gives longer life, (again at the expense of traction).
Airing down has long been the cheapest way to get a traction gain; I do not dis-recommend it; but to imply that airing down is some how safer is not something that I would do.
(The traction gained could get a neophyte into a situation that is more than they are prepared to safely do, IMO)... loose/slippery downhills are one possible exception and an incentive to use at least aggressive tread, medium traction tires, i.e. BFG mud tires or similar, for example.

The experienced travelers in well set up vehicles will sometime air down to increase flotation or/tire footprint in soft terrains, with good effect.

The very difficult to extreme trail crowd normally has the experience, safety equipment and vehicles that are good enough to make airing down a method to gain that last few percent of traction necessary to make the obstacle or roll/flop trying (not a big deal; after the first couple of times for these guys/girls, put it back on its tires and keep on wheeling).

Airing down is not a fix for poor/unsafe vehicle prep/driving techniques/experience ... nor lack of common sense, IMO.

Enjoy!

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Im sure you are doing what you feel is right and works for you.
Truth is no tire manufacturer or off-road handbook agrees with you.

I air down!
1583334047340.png
 

LandCruiserPhil

Expedition Leader
Going to place a bet that my tires will achieve touchdown around 30 psi. Mine are 2" narrower than your 35x12.5s, and we're within a couple hundred lbs of each other. Off topic but amazing how much these modern trucks weigh, and for a good reason, every component is built much tougher than my 2nd gen.

We know narrow tires elongates more than wider tires when airing down, and get flotation via a ski type of footprint. The more the elongation, the earlier the tire wraps around the 1" bar.

That's why I like this method, it takes into account so many factors. In an extreme example, say 235/85 pizza cutters on a 9000 lbs rig, the tires will probably touch down at 40 psi. And the footprint @ 40 psi will be similar in area to a 265/75 @ 30 psi, and 35x12.5 @ 21 psi.

Please post you results using my 1" bar system?
 

luthj

Engineer In Residence
When I was driving a 2WD VW van, I encountered a trailhead with a full parking area. There was more parking available, but it was up a 30-40ft section of steepish hill, mostly covered with a mix of shale and lose dirt. A 4x4 truck owner tried driving up the hill to park. Couldn't make it in 2wd, put in in 4wd. Couldn't make it. Locked his rear axle, still couldn't make it. All 4 wheels spinning, just throwing rocks everywhere, and tearing up his tires. I dropped the tire pressure on my rear axle to about 20psi, and drove right up in 2wd, no lockers, no wheelspin, no running starts.

The physics of soft surface to tire interaction are such, that high contact pressure (high tire pressure) always results in more damage to the surface. And when the surface is harder than the tire, it also damages the tire.

On maintained dirt roads where you can drive at speed, high tire pressures result in dangerous handling. When the road surface is softer, it shears easily, letting the vehicle drift/spin etc. Airing down reduces the shear load on the road surface by spreading it out over a larger area. In many conditions this results in far superior handling and safety.

When driving on deep sand or snow the difference in power required to drive at various tire pressures is very telling. It can take 1.5-2x the power to maintain speed between highway pressure and aired down.
 

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