Another one bites the dust?

[Alaska Mike]

The thread really started to escalate over the period of a couple hours. I usually try to PM a poster, asking them to moderate themselves and explain my position. However, I was too busy trying to steer the conversation back towards the positive. I really didn't want another "leafer vs coiler" debate or a debate on whether or not the discussion qualified as metaphysical. People were honestly getting offended, based on misunderstandings and ignorance. After the two threads by Ducks, I really couldn't stomach another one- especially since I started the mess.

I learned a lot from that thread, among other things that Land Rover owners (the wheeling type) aren't as uniform as I originally thought. What I edit out I will try to summarize, and hopefully accurately. What I'm mainly editing out are off-topic comments and meanderings that resulted in the derailment. Other meanderings are quite welcome.

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

I did not see the thread and this board does not have an over moderated feel (thank God) particularly considing the number of you. But I did want to briefly mention that I have been on some of these boards for years and the best ones are the ones and the best experiences are "loosely moderated" and the worst are the ones that are too heavily moderated, that work hard to "make something" or an environment. There are can be extremes of both, for example lots and lots and lots of people are put off by Disco Web for example (which I believe goes so far as to auto-replace "tranny" with "transmission").

I think that doing what you are doing (which is thinking about these threads and deletions) goes a long way and at least there is a group of you making the decisions. I run/own a forum (www.4btswaps.com with about as many members) and also we have a section for the moderators to discuss these issues in private. Oddly the group mentality has made us much more restrictive, closing, and we even had our first outright banning a couple weeks ago against a member that was single handley bringing down the whole board (some 19 year old kid). It can always go both ways, I think as long as you are conscious of what you are doing then you are OK. But the key is to make those decisions carefully. As long as that is happening then more power to you...

 

[overlander]

Got it. I never even knew there was a leafer vs. coiler or black vs green division in the LR community. I had always considered the Land Rover forum as my little sanctuary among my like minded people, and I never even imagined that series owners looked at Defender owners as being on the other side of any fence, and lumped together with late model Range Rovers and Freelanders.

I'll tread more carefully next time. Thanks.

 

[FourByLand]

Sigh...

 

[dieselcruiserhead]

The comments from these damn coilers

(just kidding, LOL...)

 

[Alaska Mike]

I did not see the thread and this board does not have an over moderated feel (thank God) particularly considing the number of you. But I did want to briefly mention that I have been on some of these boards for years and the best ones are the ones and the best experiences are "loosely moderated" and the worst are the ones that are too heavily moderated, that work hard to "make something" or an environment. There are can be extremes of both, for example lots and lots and lots of people are put off by Disco Web for example (which I believe goes so far as to auto-replace "tranny" with "transmission").

I think that doing what you are doing (which is thinking about these threads and deletions) goes a long way and at least there is a group of you making the decisions. I run/own a forum (www.4btswaps.com with about as many members) and also we have a section for the moderators to discuss these issues in private. Oddly the group mentality has made us much more restrictive, closing, and we even had our first outright banning a couple weeks ago against a member that was single handley bringing down the whole board (some 19 year old kid). It can always go both ways, I think as long as you are conscious of what you are doing then you are OK. But the key is to make those decisions carefully. As long as that is happening then more power to you...

We really do worry about the effect of over-moderation, and I do feel like we may step over the line occasionally (and sometimes I think we're too lax). There are always guys that feel their role is to "stir things up", and mitigating their actions sometimes leads to unintended consequences. We're human, and we make mistakes.

When we take a moderating action, we usually post it in the moderator section. Right now there are some comments about me trying to herd cats in the Land Rover section. Makes me giggle.

 

[kcowyo]

Sigh...

:iagree:

 

[Alaska Mike]

Got it. I never even knew there was a leafer vs. coiler or black vs green division in the LR community. I had always considered the Land Rover forum as my little sanctuary among my like minded people, and I never even imagined that series owners looked at Defender owners as being on the other side of any fence, and lumped together with late model Range Rovers and Freelanders.

I'll tread more carefully next time. Thanks.

Don't tread too lightly. I enjoy the perspective.

I didn't know the black/green division existed, but I guess it makes sense. It's been that way in the Jeep world forever (flat fender vs CJ vs YJ vs TJ vs...). Every platform has its good and bad points, and some are more suited to some tasks (and to some owners) than others. I see no problem with discussing the pros and cons, as long as the conversation isn't all negative. It helps a potential (or current) owner make more informed choices, which is never a bad thing.

I'm sure that even the much-maligned Freelander has its good points. If someone was to show up here with one, I would be interested to see what led them to that choice and how they use the vehicle. While I am not personally attracted to that vehicle (doesn't stink or leak enough), I can't argue with anyone wanting to get out there and use one.

 

[MuddyMudskipper]

I didn't know the black/green division existed...

Me neither.

 

[galen216]

X3 I like all Rovers.

 

[revor]

The comments from these damn coilers

(just kidding, LOL...)

I've just about had enough outta you Andre!!! Leaf Springs!?!? Really....

I suppose they're Japanese as well... :smilies27

Personally I agree with the way this board is moderated, like very little. I think that most of the Users moderate themselves pretty well even in some of the more "heated" discussions..

Well except that Leafer crowd..

 

[overlander]

I've just about had enough outta you Andre!!! Leaf Springs!?!? Really....

I suppose they're Japanese as well... :smilies27

Personally I agree with the way this board is moderated, like very little. I think that most of the Users moderate themselves pretty well even in some of the more "heated" discussions..

Well except that Leafer crowd..

Keith, I think the problem is they are "sprung" too tight.

 

[Yorker]

Got it. I never even knew there was a leafer vs. coiler or black vs green division in the LR community.

You'd think this was something new however it is not. I guess you guys weren't around when the LRO list had their great debates or even back when they had the leaf/coiler spolit?

If anything the attitudes are BETTER now than they once were- On both sides of the rift. Opinions have evolved over time and it is not as bad as some might like to believe nowadays. Remember the Series owners were essentially abandoned here after 1973, and when LR returned in 1987 it really didn't want anything to do with them and it didn't resemble the utilitarian LR that they had known so well.

Just to give some historical perspective:

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 07:49:09 -0800
From: twakeman@scruznet.com (TeriAnn Wakeman)
Subject: RE: Deep thoughts...

At 2:12 PM 12/19/96 -0800, Davies, Scott wrote:
;
>As the owner of an old and work weary 110 I find I have more in common with
>the owners of series vehicles, they're the only ones who wave when you pass
>them.
>Scott Davies '85 110 2.5D HT

;
Thats because the heritage of your Defender is plain to see. It inherited
a full measure of genes from both parents and looks a lot like Mom & Pop
series Land Rovers. On the other hand I can't help but wonder, when I look
at a Discovery of the milk man was a Mitsibishi SUV.

Being a charter member of the series chalvanistic fringe, I think Defenders
belong on both lists, the RRO for the coiler specific postings and the leaf
spring list for everthing else.

So would you trade your 2.5D powerplant for a TDi? Every once and a while
I toy with the idea of replacing my 2.25 petrol engine with a 2.5L turbo
disel.

I have heard that the TDi engine has a built in pump on the front that can
cause fit problems in a Series car.

TeriAnn

twakeman@scruznet.com

http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1996/961220.html

Date: Thu, 19 Dec 1996 07:49:03 -0800
From: twakeman@scruznet.com (TeriAnn Wakeman)
Subject: Re: Deep thoughts...

At 8:48 AM 12/19/96 -0500, Adams, Bill wrote:

>On the deep thoughts subject...is it my imagination, or have a lot of
>coil sprung folks wound up on this list...after the "Great Divide" . I
>see several questions and signatures with RR, D90, and Disco in them.
>Interesting.

<Risking additional tar & feathering>
I too couldn't help but notice a very high percentage of the postings on
the leaf spring mail list are coiler specific. I also noticed a lot of
coiler specific postings cross posted to the leaf spring list as if a
series II owner would even know what a EC whatever is.

Its bad enough that these plusmobiles can out perform leaf sprung cars off
road, but they do it in air conditioned comfort cushoned from the feel of
the rocks. Now they are sqeezing out the leaf spring postings on our own
list

Even though the Range Rovers and Discoverys can outperform the series cars
and they have the right name on the badge, I still think they have a case
of chrisma envy. Something the Defender owners, being direct decendents of
the series cars with jillions of interchangable parts inherited in full.

TeriAnn

twakeman@scruznet.com

http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb/lro/Year-1996/961220.html


In a similar vein some 5 years later:

"While I respect you a lot as you bring a lot of experience to the list,
it pains me that your statements ring true. I know many leafers don't care
about coiler guys, and that permeates with your attitudes. It seeps into
the persona of off-road events, and generally makes for a difficult time
planning events between the two groups. Those of us who own coil-sprung
rovers and actually are enthusiasts tend to appreciate the series trucks and
learn what we can about the heritage of our marque. "



Unfortunately for some of us leafers we don't meet many coilers that fall
into this description.
A couple of us Series guys on island have taken the time to stop and chat
with coilers and invite them to participate on our trips and get togethers.
Pretty much get treated like we are not good enough for them. I am not
talking about the station wagon soccer moms either. If it's a stock
looking, new, scratchless Rangie or Disco I don't bother any more. I am
talking about the guys/girls that have off road tires, bars, lights, racks
etc. Ask em to go off roading, they think you mean drive through the
pineapple fields or to Keana Pt. Tell em we mean Peacock Flats, the
Kahuku's, or the training areas of Schoffield. Tell them about the knee
deep mud, how Kevin and I have both flooded our engines, about the time I
had water up to my seat cushions and they get this look on their face like
we are talking about going to mars. These people have the pushbars so they
dont scratch their fenders in parking lots. They thought that those three
white round disks on the front just let people know they spent more $$$ on
their vehicle. Don't really use the lights, because that would mean getting
ut of the vehicle to remove the covers. The roof rack is to put the beach
chairs on so you don't get sand in the vehicle. The tires, well it's a
truck, ya have to have truck tires ona truck. The three Defender guys I
have met on Island bought the "image". They have money and want everyone to
know. Oh they also have a Benz and a BMW Z-3. You know, the people who
think Series means new Disco, or the "early Defender", or the vehicle used
by the Desert Rats in North Africa during WWII. Had one guy go into this
long explanation about how the Range Rover company designed the Land Rover
for a British oil company in the 50's for oil exploration and they were
never sold to the general public. Other oil companies, logging companies,
mines, etc were the only one that got them.


I have met some of the people from this list that own coilers and I know
that my above rant is not a blanket statement against all coilers, but it
does describe the majority of coil owners. It has been mentioned on this
list in the past that hopefully Ford realises that there exists a market for
a true utility type 4x4. I hope they do, but you know what, I think the
market is very, very, very small. Ford bought a Name. If the Defender line
continues, in less then 10 years it will be an aerodynamic, unibody design
vehicle with crumple zones, molded plastic bumpers, airbags, and all the
electric gadgets you can imagine. Some people believe that this elctrickery
makes the vehicle more reliable, recent dsicussion on the Mendo list about
this. People didn't believe me when I claimed to have had many vehicles
towed into our shop for sensor related failures, including one GM car that
had it's brakes lock up when the ABS system went out. If you are looking
for something that doesn't require much in the way of maintance, then buy a
brand new vehicle and swap it out every 3-4 years. But dont try and tell me
that a 10 yo EFI vehicle is more reliable then a Series vehicle would have
been when it was 10 years old. And if you believe that a coiler is more
reliable then a leafer how about a $for$ comparison. I will wager a months
pay that if two people both had the same budget, the one that puts all the
money into new parts for a Series rig will have a more relaible vehicle then
the person that buys a Disco II.


I am not saying that coil sprung vehicle are bad. I would love to get a
1975 2 door rangie. Maybe swap out the duel SU/Stromberg carbs for webers,
but I would be happy with the rest of the package. For my next project I
want to build a coil 109 with a dormie top. Diesel engine and auto tranny.
Hope Joe does build his Series so I can learn from his experiance. I can't
wait to get to the PacNorWest and meet some of the people up there and see
how they have built their rigs. From the photos I have seen and the people
I have talked to, hope I can talk Timm Cooper into letting me an apprentice
for a while. To me the Rover is a big lego set. I like the looks. I like
working on them. I enjoy the simplicity and the funny quirks. I love that
I had to remove the radiator in order to take off the steering relay, I
still laugh at that one. I like the small 4 cyl in the 88 and the low
gearing. Yes I drive in more mud then rock crawling and I "rednecked" the
88 by putting 33's on it, but they are working great for me. I do cringe at
times when I think about what I have done to my vehicle and know there are
people out there that probably think I have truely ruined the vehicle. But
I am happy with it. The only thing I have done that isn non-reversable is
to change the shape of the rear wheel wells. If I ever got rid of the
thing, someone could get a stock chassis and springs it it would be a stock
series again. Show of hands, who remembers the kid that wanted to put 33's
and a v-8 in a Series rig? he was run off pretty quick. Think some are
trying the same with Joe, and am sure that if I had started out discussing
my plans I would have been run off also. BTW I found this list sometime in
mid 97, but never posted until May 98 when I found out about the move to
Hawaii, and asked about Rovers for sale here. Other then asking questions,
I stayed pretty quiete for another year. I saw alot of how the
non-traditionalist were treated and didn't want any part of it.
Well that is enough for now I am sure,
Pete

http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb//mailinglist-archives/lro/2001/06/29/0061.html

Quote:
> I know many leafers don't care
>about coiler guys, and that permeates with your attitudes. It seeps into
>the persona of off-road events, and generally makes for a difficult time
>planning events between the two groups.


A part of it is that coiler drivers like to convoy on highways at 75 MPH.
That's WAY fast for just about every series rig except for one normally
asperated 2.25L 109 diesel I know of. With their real high gearing
coilers tend to trail faster too. Give them 4.7 rings & pinions and a 55
mph highway speed governer and the coiler people would probably fit in
with series people a lot better.


Oh and I do NOT want to hear another story about how crappy a coiler rig
is because it has a little leak around the door or one of the motors
adjusting the seat is not working.


TeriAnn Near Santa Cruz, California


My old car 1960 Land Rover 109 owned since 1978
My new car 1961 Triumph TR3A owned since 1986
"Who could ask for anything more"

http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb//mailinglist-archives/lro/2001/06/29/0103.html

http://www.fourfold.org/RoverWeb//mailinglist-archives/lro/2001/07/01/0015.html

 

[FourByLand]

X3 I like all Rovers.

Thank you...The thing that you guys/girls need to understand is that there is no Leafer Vs. Coiler on ExPo, sorry you have had to deal with that in the past but you have come to a special place on the WWW where we open our arms to everyone from Honda Elements to Unimogs!... Let it go.

 

[Yorker]

Thank you...The thing that you guys/girls need to understand is that there is no Leafer Vs. Coiler on ExPo, sorry you have had to deal with that in the past but you have come to a special place on the WWW where we open our arms to everyone from Honda Elements to Unimogs!... Let it go.

That is THE reason why I like it here- there is far more acceptance of different models and brands than anywhere else. It is also very friendly towards swaps and modifications that would have a purist foaming at the mouth. That is what makes this place unique.

When it comes to 4X4s I am an equal opportunist. Sure I might gravitate more to vintage rigs but so what?