Antenna on the hood

Spikepretorius

Explorer
Has anyone here ever mounted one or more antennae on the hood? I'm not talking about brackets on the side edge, but actually drilled and fitted on the hood.
Any pros and cons? Photos?

My two antennae are currently on the bullbar and I'm considering moving them to my hood to improve ground plain.

My truck is turbodiesel without too much electrickery under the hood.
My radios are 29mhz and VHF (Icom F110, mostly 142.xxx to 154.xxx range of frequencies)
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Spikepretorius said:
My truck is turbodiesel without too much electrickery under the hood.
That solves the main problem, ignition interference. Experiment away!

Other than blocking your view, RF-wise it's a fine location. The best spot I've seen is drilling a hole in the cowl just before the windshield, usually on FJ40s and Jeeps. The only thing that comes to mind with it at the middle of the hood is routing the coax to keep it from getting pinched and broken when open the hood.

I'd mess with a magnetic mount first to see how it works before drilling a hole in an obvious spot like the hood. Hard to say if you'll notice a difference compared to the bull bar. Probably will be better. But at the same time might also only be a slight bump in noticeable performance, only now you have a couple of holes in your hood.
 

gary in ohio

Explorer
You need to bond the hood to the body and you will still need to be careful of ignition noise. I would look for other places to put antennas.
 

lowenbrau

Explorer
Yup.

Diesel as well.

Seems to tx better than my pals with similar equipment and is just far enough in not to get torn off by limbs.
 
S

Scenic WonderRunner

Guest
Hey Spike!

Whats wrong with just trying a Mag Mount antenna where ever you like first........before drilling holes!??

I mean Really...........


Can you Imagine me Drilling a HOLE in the Hood of the ..........."SWR"...........>?!!!!!!


I think the Rock Gods would punish me Terribly!!!!!!!!!!!:jump:



YIKES!..........What a Scary thought! ................hehe




(posted all in fun and just remember that sarcasm cannot be read on da net.....so please don't hold it against me......hehe!)
 

ntsqd

Heretic Car Camper
Just last night I was looking at the hood and the roof of the FJ60 and thinking with that middle rib in the roof and the possible near full length rack that the hood didn't look like all that bad of an idea. No holes for me, mag mount only. I've lost those off the roof, would be pretty noticeable off the hood.

Those with experience who say it'll be troublesome, but it seems to me that the wave length of most any ham or cb (of any country) is larger than the gap around the edges of the hood. So the trouble comes from radiation off the bottom side of the hood? Isn't this essentially a Faraday Cage? Or well grounded (i.e. not through just the hinges and the latch) is required for it to work as one?

With a mechanical diesel I can see a significant noise source entering the wiring under the hood and causing problems with anything electronic, though the IP's solenoid shouldn't care. The engine should stay running.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
ntsqd said:
Those with experience who say it'll be troublesome, but it seems to me that the wave length of most any ham or cb (of any country) is larger than the gap around the edges of the hood. So the trouble comes from radiation off the bottom side of the hood? Isn't this essentially a Faraday Cage? Or well grounded (i.e. not through just the hinges and the latch) is required for it to work as one?

With a mechanical diesel I can see a significant noise source entering the wiring under the hood and causing problems with anything electronic, though the IP's solenoid shouldn't care. The engine should stay running.
You need to be sensitive to EMI from both conduction and susceptibility. So The radio can be both a source of noise and be affected by it. In the case of the car engine, some things are quite good at being sources of noise and other are very good at being harmed by them.

The most obvious and common is the gasoline ignition system. High voltage, poorly shielded, highly impulsive energy. It's a textbook noise source and it does it's job well. Modern cars are pretty good about dealing with it, particularly with coils at the plugs. But it's still the main problem hams deal with. FWIW, your engine spark system is a tremendous emulation of the trans Atlantic spark gap transmitters that Marconi and Telsa were messing with back in the 19th century, just a lot lower energy. But an unshielded firing spark plug can make enough RF energy to be heard a fair distance away with a sensitive receiver. The jump to a very early radio is to pulse the spark with intelligence (i.e. Morse Code) and that's the extent of a radio.

Next is the alternator, this is present on all cars. Another great source of EMI, not badly affected by it. Rotating electromagnetic system with lots of energy. The problem here is a matter of how easily it gets into your radio. The noise is carried by the power wiring and you go and hook up your radio right to it, giving the EMI a very easy path into the radio.

The ECU, this can be a source for switching noise, but the power is so low that it by itself is not a major problem to deal with on radios. The things it switches might be a source for troublesome EMI because the signal is amplified to do something (other than ignition, primarily fuel injectors are noise sources). The main problem you are dealing with here is susceptibility. It does not take much energy to cause upsets in the ECU and in some cases to actually damage the ECU. But manufacturers know this and they are mechanically shielded and the inputs and outputs are protected reasonably well against EMI. Still, big enough source and you can overwhelm the protection, frying the ECU. Usually people see issues before permanent damage, like the engine does not run right, dies, etc. while you are transmitting on the radio.

Don't out think yourself, a grounded hood is kind of a Faraday Cage. But a cage is only good for frequencies that physically can flow through it. The gap around the hood is insulated with rubber bumpers and the latch and hinge are usually are painted and make poor conductors. So it's an non-ideal Faraday Cage and has waveguides along the edges to boot. Depending on the bandwidth, fundamentals, harmonics and directionality of the EMI, it's possible that you will never create a perfect cage. Plus, when you pass through the hood, the mount and coax are exposed inside the cage, so you have to be careful of routing and connectors inside the cage.

With a diesel engine, the main source of broadband noise is taken away, no matter if the engine has mechanical or electrical injectors. Ignition systems are huge problems. But electronic injectors are only slightly less of a problem, but mainly because they are much lower energy and generally not quite as noisy. But they are a periodic pulse and so they are a problem. Mechanical injection removes the pulse of the injectors, but will still have the alternator, so you have to work around that.

Also, don't forget about harmonics. Even at the 4th, 5th or higher order, harmonics can still carry significant energy and as the frequency goes up, the wavelength goes down. The 5th harmonic wavelength of a 440MHz fundamental is about 13cm and if you take the path of the hood flange around the hood, I'd be willing to bet it's could be a 5 inch folded guide, so a grounded hood and body could conceivably duct the RF energy quite well. In that case, a mesh or foil covering the gap would break up the guide, but adds to complexity of the shielding.

The reality of the situation is that EMI can enter your radio in many ways and in the case of a spark ignition engine, keeping EMI sensitive stuff away from the engine is best. But a well grounded body, hood and doors will cover the bulk of the RF EMI and keeping coax and antennas away is about all you need to do until you start trying to do AM DX, where background noise is a major issue. With FM and local AM, with reasonable care the local EMI will be low enough compared to the information that you can just squelch it out. With diesel engines you can significantly lower the background noise, but it's still there.
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Spikepretorius said:
Translation? :Wow1:
Translation:
1. Park truck in shop
2. Consider alternator whine when hooking up power.
3. If you have electronic injectors, route your coax carefully away from them.
4. Enjoy beer after a job well done.
5. Talk about your RSA 4x100 and 4x400 relay teams via quiet, clear radio.
 
Last edited:

Spikepretorius

Explorer
Aah that's better. Thanks
So you reckon it's feasible.

My co-ax already travels through the engine bay on either side. I'll just be careful when I shift everything onto the hood.



(Don't talk about our Olympic team. I heard someone got a medal today. All the radio stations were taking bets that we were going to get buggerall.) :)
 

DaveInDenver

Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Spikepretorius said:
Aah that's better. Thanks
So you reckon it's feasible.

My co-ax already travels through the engine bay on either side. I'll just be careful when I shift everything onto the hood.



(Don't talk about our Olympic team. I heard someone got a medal today. All the radio stations were taking bets that we were going to get buggerall.) :)
Well, OK. The South African Olympic squad did get a medal today, but I won't spoil it. It was not your relay teams, those races won't be run until the end of this week. Oh the suspense!
 

rusty_tlc

Explorer
Spikepretorius said:
diesel=no ignition
You still have an alternator though. They can be noisy.

Wherever you place it be sure to keep it 1/4 wave length into the ground plane. For 2M that translates to ~ 20" in 'Merician units, over 1/4 wave length really doesn't help much.
 

java

Expedition Leader
i had a mag mount cb in the middle of my hood. its the best setup ive had. the truck was stolen as was the antenna, i have a elcheapo fire stick and hate it. i need something better. sorry im of no use in the ham dept, always used HT
 

Forum statistics

Threads
189,981
Messages
2,922,831
Members
233,209
Latest member
Goldenbora
Top