Put fox 2.5 coilovers on my 2014 tacoma about a year ago. They ride is great just one complaint really. Can't get 2.5+ inches of lift without a bunch of preload. Have the stock eibach 13" 600lb springs the came with fox setup. Thought about getting 650lb coils but dont plan on putting any armor on my truck. Anybody put 14" 600lb springs on their Fox coilovers?
Anybody running fox 2.5 with longer coil?
- Thread starter Suicyco
- Start date
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I just put 14" long 650 lbs King coils on my 2.5" IFP FOX (no remote reservoirs) shocks this week. I had the same 13" long, 600 lbs FOX/Eibach springs on it originally, just like FOX assembled it.
They'll fit, no question. The ride definitely got more firm. Don't need a sway bar anymore. But I'm only running an ARB bumper (winch not yet installed) and dual batteries up front, stock skid plates still.
I had my top spring collars set at about 2" down on passenger's side and about 2.5" down on driver's with the 600 lbs coils. This yielded about 22" from hub center to fender lip, both stock bumper and with the ARB (both had the dual batteries). The difference between stock bumper and ARB in static ride height was very small, 1/4" or less. It did make a difference in ride quality, I thought it rode noticeably better with the ARB on and it started making me second guess going to a 650 lbs coils. I'll probably be happy once I get the winch in and skid plates, though.
Anyway, I ran the collars down about 1" from the top as a starting point with the new coils. Immediately after install the new hub center to fender lip was 24" on passenger and 23" on driver's. I turned the passenger's side down 4 turns and now it's 23" on both sides and has held this height for a couple of hundred miles now. Got it aligned to this but I'm thinking about taking a couple of more turns out to drop back to maybe 22.5" or so. I only wanted 2.5" of lift and my starting point was closer to 20" hub to fender lip, so with the 14/650 springs I got a solid 3" of lift.
Based on what I've seen so far I would never do 700 lbs coils unless you want no wheel travel. My truck rides like a truck again, which I like, but it may start to impact wheel travel. Like I say, I have more things to add on the horizon, but as of right now I kind of wish I'd just done 14", 600 lbs springs (if anything).
Was:
Is now:
Are you actually compressing the springs static length when you run the collar down? If not all you are doing is raising the ride height. IOW, the collar position initially only changes where within the travel window the truck rides. If you're still within the suspension's capability then moving the collar down only means as you lift you have less down travel, although you (potentially) gain up travel.
I think a lot of people confuse this. You can run the collar down as far as you want and if the weight hasn't exceeded the spring's capacity then you're fine (AFAIK you can position the collar anywhere along the threads safely, but you need to check with FOX to verify this). If you actually start additionally compressing the spring (or if your springs bind) then you may need a higher spring rate. When you compress the spring more you start reducing the travel window since it no longer has the full length to compress.
I prematurely jumped in anticipation of more add-ons. If I was stopping here I would consider the ride now excessively stiff, so we'll see.
They'll fit, no question. The ride definitely got more firm. Don't need a sway bar anymore. But I'm only running an ARB bumper (winch not yet installed) and dual batteries up front, stock skid plates still.
I had my top spring collars set at about 2" down on passenger's side and about 2.5" down on driver's with the 600 lbs coils. This yielded about 22" from hub center to fender lip, both stock bumper and with the ARB (both had the dual batteries). The difference between stock bumper and ARB in static ride height was very small, 1/4" or less. It did make a difference in ride quality, I thought it rode noticeably better with the ARB on and it started making me second guess going to a 650 lbs coils. I'll probably be happy once I get the winch in and skid plates, though.
Anyway, I ran the collars down about 1" from the top as a starting point with the new coils. Immediately after install the new hub center to fender lip was 24" on passenger and 23" on driver's. I turned the passenger's side down 4 turns and now it's 23" on both sides and has held this height for a couple of hundred miles now. Got it aligned to this but I'm thinking about taking a couple of more turns out to drop back to maybe 22.5" or so. I only wanted 2.5" of lift and my starting point was closer to 20" hub to fender lip, so with the 14/650 springs I got a solid 3" of lift.
Based on what I've seen so far I would never do 700 lbs coils unless you want no wheel travel. My truck rides like a truck again, which I like, but it may start to impact wheel travel. Like I say, I have more things to add on the horizon, but as of right now I kind of wish I'd just done 14", 600 lbs springs (if anything).
Was:
Is now:
Are you actually compressing the springs static length when you run the collar down? If not all you are doing is raising the ride height. IOW, the collar position initially only changes where within the travel window the truck rides. If you're still within the suspension's capability then moving the collar down only means as you lift you have less down travel, although you (potentially) gain up travel.
I think a lot of people confuse this. You can run the collar down as far as you want and if the weight hasn't exceeded the spring's capacity then you're fine (AFAIK you can position the collar anywhere along the threads safely, but you need to check with FOX to verify this). If you actually start additionally compressing the spring (or if your springs bind) then you may need a higher spring rate. When you compress the spring more you start reducing the travel window since it no longer has the full length to compress.
I prematurely jumped in anticipation of more add-ons. If I was stopping here I would consider the ride now excessively stiff, so we'll see.
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zidaro
Explorer
its ok to replace with a longer spring so long as you are measuring the compressed length of spring and ensure enough separation at the shock base to top retainer. Binding your spring will destroy the spring and likely damage the shock.
All spring mfgs will have their specs avail.
All spring mfgs will have their specs avail.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
BTW, when adjusting them a 5/16" pin punch isn't the right tool even though it fits the collar perfectly. I ended up using a trimmed down 1/4" socket extension. It seems the ones made in Taiwan are just about exactly 8mm in diameter and fit snug the holes. Or I guess you could buy the correct FOX tool, too. That would probably be more better.
When i adjust the collar the spring does compress so not 100% sure what you are saying there. I realize the more you compress coil/ raise vehicle the more down travel you lose. My setup looks very semilar to your first photo. I have about 2"+ of thread showing (single collar) and am at about 22 3/8" hub to fender. Educatedly guessing a little over 2 inches of lift. My thought was that with a 14" spring i could lessen the preload and possibly improving ride quality?? Dunno. I realize a lot of that has to do with valving but this is my dd so won't be doing that anytime soon. Already took coils off once and sent to fox since they had said 2 3/4" out of box but barely got 2. Also I do not plan on any weight up front from stock so would not go up in spring rate.
Cheaped out on the spanner wrench but finally got the punch combo figured out and am somewhat smooth now. A lot of cussing in beginning haha
Just checked and compressed length of coils is 9 5/8". Plus 1/2" collar and the 2 1/8" of thread. Not seeing any soring binding. Not sure how to post pics yet
rickashay
Explorer
Let me look at the coils I have in my garage. I too was looking for less preload for the 2.5" Fox's with Resi's on my Tundra. Fox sent me some coils but I never got around to installing them before selling the truck as I had not yet built a front bumper that the new coils would have helped with. I'll check the length tomorrow but I think they are 14" and rated to 700lbs for the heft of the 4.7L V8 in my old Tundra.
rruff
Explorer
If I understand correctly, you are still going to need a ton of spring preload if you use longer 600 lb springs. It'll be the same inches of preload that you have now actually, the threaded adjuster will just be in a different spot.
If your current setup rides great I don't think there is anything to worry about.
So you're saying same ride quality, just lookswise less thread showing ? If that's the case then there's no reason to change. For some reason i was thinking if I could put less pressure on the spring, because of the longer coil, then there would be less preload and possibly a smoother ride with the same height. But that seemed to easy to be true so thats why i asked here. Fox knows what they're doing just wondering why ive read others switching to 14" coils. And staying with same coil rate. Anyone else confirm this?? Thanks guys
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
I have 10-11/16" (driver) and 11-1/4" (passenger) static compressed length with the 14", 650 lb/in springs. Collars are set (very approximately) down from top plate at 1" on driver and 1/2" on passenger. I have about 22.5" center to fender now since I did turn the collars down 3 turns on each side yesterday. I'm only shooting for about 2.5" of lift at most since I don't have any desire to drop my diff and want to keep the CV angles reasonable.
One reason people switch to 14" is that 13" is an odd size that is only available as custom from FOX (and I think Icon). Standard aftermarket lengths are 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, etc. inches.
There is a slight advantage to a 14" over a 13" in that you get an additional coil and slightly longer length for the spring to travel. Doesn't have much impact on the ride per say (spring rate is spring rate) but lowers chance of spring binding as you increase the ride height. The real world difference is probably somewhere between minimal and zero since I'm fairly certainly that you'd have to go below 500 lb/in to really bind a spring with a stock truck.
BTW, I found this Tacoma World thread helpful:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/icon-2-5-c-os-king-14x700-springs.212046/
You'll see my questions towards the end. The one thing I can't quite get clear in my head is the relationship of spring length and collar position. I am still confused as to whether or not the collar position going up 1" on the shock with the same spring rate (e.g. going from 600/13 to 600/14) means the up vs down ratio remains the same or that you gain 1" of up travel at the expense of 1" lost in down. IOW, assuming your window is fixed at 10" (which can't change) then a 13" long spring with the collar 2" down the body might mean 5" down, 5" up (assumed starting point). Does going to a 14" spring with the collar now only 1" down the body mean you still have 5"/5" or does it mean you now have 6" up, 4" down?
That's the reason I was considering 14" springs at the same rate, to see what would happen. Regardless, the ride quality remains the same and the truck ride height does, too. Replacing a 13" spring with a 14" spring on with the collar 2" on both will mean you ride 1" higher, but the 10" of travel stays the same (e.g. the coil bucket to lower arm distance remains constant). So I think it won't matter, the set point of the collar is irrelevant, the total travel, ride height and up/down ratio are always going to be the same. The only difference is how quickly the spring runs out of travel and begins to bind.
FOX is probably balancing everything and decided what they did for a reason. Hard to second guess them and Icon came to the same conclusion on 13" springs. I suspect that the reason for 13" coils and 600 lb/in is that this combination gives a good balance, fairly close to equal up vs down travel with stock weight and reasonable lift and cost. I got about 2.25" of lift, give or take, the way FOX set it up. I had to turn the driver's down about 1/2" more to correct the lean and when I added the second battery I had to add another couple of turns. But the ride never really changed until I put the ARB on, when it actually (I think) improved, at least around town.
Shock valving factors into this. So the relative softness vs firmness may have little to do with the spring rate but the interaction of the spring to the weight and how it relates to the travel and velocity of the shock shaft. So changing something such as spring rate and length may help one thing (ride height or lift) but could make another better or worse. Just saying if you're happy with the ride you may not want to change spring rates willy-nilly and particularly if the length has marginal impact.
One reason people switch to 14" is that 13" is an odd size that is only available as custom from FOX (and I think Icon). Standard aftermarket lengths are 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, etc. inches.
There is a slight advantage to a 14" over a 13" in that you get an additional coil and slightly longer length for the spring to travel. Doesn't have much impact on the ride per say (spring rate is spring rate) but lowers chance of spring binding as you increase the ride height. The real world difference is probably somewhere between minimal and zero since I'm fairly certainly that you'd have to go below 500 lb/in to really bind a spring with a stock truck.
BTW, I found this Tacoma World thread helpful:
https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/icon-2-5-c-os-king-14x700-springs.212046/
You'll see my questions towards the end. The one thing I can't quite get clear in my head is the relationship of spring length and collar position. I am still confused as to whether or not the collar position going up 1" on the shock with the same spring rate (e.g. going from 600/13 to 600/14) means the up vs down ratio remains the same or that you gain 1" of up travel at the expense of 1" lost in down. IOW, assuming your window is fixed at 10" (which can't change) then a 13" long spring with the collar 2" down the body might mean 5" down, 5" up (assumed starting point). Does going to a 14" spring with the collar now only 1" down the body mean you still have 5"/5" or does it mean you now have 6" up, 4" down?
That's the reason I was considering 14" springs at the same rate, to see what would happen. Regardless, the ride quality remains the same and the truck ride height does, too. Replacing a 13" spring with a 14" spring on with the collar 2" on both will mean you ride 1" higher, but the 10" of travel stays the same (e.g. the coil bucket to lower arm distance remains constant). So I think it won't matter, the set point of the collar is irrelevant, the total travel, ride height and up/down ratio are always going to be the same. The only difference is how quickly the spring runs out of travel and begins to bind.
FOX is probably balancing everything and decided what they did for a reason. Hard to second guess them and Icon came to the same conclusion on 13" springs. I suspect that the reason for 13" coils and 600 lb/in is that this combination gives a good balance, fairly close to equal up vs down travel with stock weight and reasonable lift and cost. I got about 2.25" of lift, give or take, the way FOX set it up. I had to turn the driver's down about 1/2" more to correct the lean and when I added the second battery I had to add another couple of turns. But the ride never really changed until I put the ARB on, when it actually (I think) improved, at least around town.
Shock valving factors into this. So the relative softness vs firmness may have little to do with the spring rate but the interaction of the spring to the weight and how it relates to the travel and velocity of the shock shaft. So changing something such as spring rate and length may help one thing (ride height or lift) but could make another better or worse. Just saying if you're happy with the ride you may not want to change spring rates willy-nilly and particularly if the length has marginal impact.
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rruff
Explorer
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, but I'll throw this out there. With a stock setup, let's say you have 10" of wheel travel (not shock travel), and it sits half way between full compression and full extension. The tire will move 5" up before it hits the frame bumpstops, and 5" down before the shock length limits full extension. You may have noticed that your Fox struts are a little longer than the stock ones. I don't know if that is true, but on the Tundras anyway, most aftermarket struts are a little longer, which increases how far down the wheel can move at full extension, ~1 inch or so.
Now you put on your Fox struts and set them up for 2.5" higher at the neutral point. That means your wheel can move up at full compression 5+2.5= 7.5" now before it hits bumpstops. You may not get all of that though. You might need to extend the bumpstops to keep larger tires from hitting the wheel wells, or the shock itself my not allow that much compression, and you definitely don't want the strut to be the thing that limits full compression! They can collapse. In the other direction it's 5-2.5+1, or 3.5" before the shock is fully extended. That means you will "top out" more easily when the wheels are unloaded compared to stock, but 3.5" of down travel isn't that bad.
I think 2.5" is about the smart limit for a strut lift on a Tundra, and it sounds like the Tacomas are similar in that respect. If you go any higher, you need a differential drop, may need UCAs to get decent alignment, and the amount of down travel from neutral becomes very small.
The only advantage I see to a longer spring is the spring will be farther from binding when the shock is fully compressed. But I trust that Fox has already determined that 13" is long enough.
rruff
Explorer
I think this is how it works. For a given suspension geometry, ride height, and load, the force exerted by the spring must be the same in both cases. So a 13" or 14" 600 lb spring will be compressed the same amount from its free length. With a 14" spring what you will lose is the ability to turn preload down to a low height, while gaining more ability to crank it up. But if you don't want to do that, there isn't a point.
I've just gathered this from reading and thinking about it though. I've never actually worked on these.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Indeed. I have Camburg extended travel UCA (ball joint type, so still a limit compared to uniball) and my shocks are extended travel that required them. I'm sure the spring and shock travel factors into their choice to use a 13". I don't know what my up/down travel is so I'm just speaking hypothetically.
Diff drop is difficult to nail down. I think the window with even extended travel (mid travel as is called) doesn't normally present a problem. I think the static height if pushed too high does put them at a less ideal angle that wear them out faster. This is why I'm trying to stay modest, around 2.25" ideally, so that they aren't spinning on the highway too close to their limits (I dearly wish Toyota still offered hub locks). Diff drops create a problem on the Tacoma because they can create a situation where landing too hard on the skid plate can punch a hole in the oil pan. I can't say exactly what all has to happen and it's not guaranteed to happen. But it can.
Agreed (see below for rational).
What I was trying to say is that moving the collar initially isn't adding any additional load to the coil, it's just moving up and down your static position within the travel window. At some point you actually begin compressing the spring more to achieve an intended height, probably because the truck weighs more than expected.
I'm not sure what the FOX 13" spring travel is, but since they are Eibach 3" I'll assume the difference between 12 and 14 is it. Their 3" race springs in 600 lb/in are 6.76" for 12" and 7.74 for 14", so 7.25" is probably close. You're using 3.375" you may have another 3.875" before binding. If turning the collar squished the spring a little more you'd actually be fine, unlikely to bind it. You'd compress a 14" spring the same amount but would have another ~1/2" before binding.
In my case I'm using 3.6875" with a total travel for the 14" 650# spring of 7.39" so I have another 3.7025" before binding. With the old springs I would have had to compress them maybe to 3.75 or something. Leaving me with 3.5" or something. Since I have higher sprung weight it's more likely I would have eventually traveled closer to their maximum. I could have achieved some of the benefits by using a 600/14 spring, meaning I would still compress 3.75" (or whatever) but would have something like 3.92" to go before binding. This is a difference of a couple of hundred lbf added capacity.
DaveInDenver
Middle Income Semi-Redneck
Be interested to know what you do, if anything. Knowing now what I do I might have considered going down in spring rate with a longer spring for a 100% stock truck. It really did ride well on the road with the ARB on 600 lb springs.