Anyone using both lead acid and lithium (battle born) through d250s b2b charger?

[DiploStrat]

...

So it's a compromise designed for RVs that spend most or all of their time hooked up to shore power. It's primary function is as a power supply for the 12v systems in the RV, but thanks to the goofy conservative charge profile, can be hooked up to shore power indefinitely without cooking lead-acid batteries.

However...

It looks to me like the standard PD might actually be a better fit for the Battle Born than the PDL. I wanna know what that PDL does after the lithium battery reaches 14.6v...and naturally, the marketing droids (who obviously long ago staged a coup and took over) at PD don't tell us. Even in the bloody manual, they don't tell us.

I doubt it just shuts down - PD makes power converters to supply the 12v loads in RVs, and they can't very well do that if they just shut down when the battery hits 14.6v.

Back in the day when I worried about lead acid batteries ... (Did I just write that?) Lots of Tiger owners spat on the ground at the mention of Progressive Dynamics because, while while the charger would get up to the 14.xV range needed for AGM, etc., it then immediately dropped to float, leaving out the long high volt/low amp absorb stage that is so useful for lead acid. Why? If we assume that their engineers are not idiots, I would suspect it is because they realized that the average US RV owner spends almost every night connected to shore power. In contrast, the overland/expedition camper almost never connects to shore power. A lot of Tiger owners spend a lot of time boon docking and thus they were unhappy about the charging performance of several PD products.

That is why I am such an advocate of solar and inverter/chargers, like the Magnum, which have better and user modifiable charging profiles.

 

[JCDriller]

I received an encouraging email from BB saying that the D250S will work with their lithium battery. One down fall is slower charging rates than the advertised 20a, Sean said at the top of the charging cycle it slows down to 8 amps even though the lithium can take all 20.

I also asked about utilizing a heavy duty blue sea switch to join the batteries (lead acid + Lithium) for 10-15 minutes when winching. Sean said while it won't hurt their battery it'll just trip the BMS and therefore won't be of much use while winching.

It looks like he may be getting a smart pass to try out, this should resolve the slow charging issue. However, I'm concerned it may put too much stress on the alternator. Not the end of the world, can be replaced.

anyone smarter than me have any input on winching with the batteries combined?? I know they say that the Warn zeon 10 can pull up to 500A.

 

[dwh]

Well, like he said, it'll probably trip the BMS.

That 500a is probably the "full locked rotor" rating. Loading up a winch till it stalls isn't good. More likely 200a under normal use.

Some of that will come from the alternator, the rest from the batteries. The lithium will have a lower resistance, so power will flow from it first. If the alternator supplied say 80a, and the load was 200a, then the other 120a would come from the lithium - for 30sec till the BMS cut out (exceeding 100a limit), then 5sec later cut in again.

I'd just run the winch from the cranking battery and the alternator with plenty of breaks to let the alt pump the battery back up between pulls.

And electric winches need cool down periods anyway.

 

[scott7022]

I will add my experience with this vendor. I had searched the world for a system that would work with my application. Different than almost anybody else. Russia uses Lithium safe and not safe chemistries and sodium (for the cold). Import restrictions and size sent me to Australia. I got some info and cooperation across the pond until I didn't. Basically too much of a hassle to ship and warranty stuff. So I talked to my Marine industry electrical types and actually ordered 6 carbon foam firefly units. They were getting hard to source in Canada and I wanted to have them ready for when I landed home. The electrical system will be the first upgrade. Then I found Battle Born. I don't remember how, I was reading alternator threads someplace. I emailed them and told them this build was a year out, usually the death of a return email, but that I understood the chemistry/engineering and asked five questions. They answered in 24 hours. But not just answers, distinct and accurate answers removing all hesitation I was having. Usually, as has been posted, suppliers send the propaganda and marketing spin stuff that fails to address individual issues. Or blanket "Yeah it will work fine don't worry."
It ain't their 4 grand in batteries right?
Battle Born answered and didn't even ask what the hell do you need 600 A/hrs of power in a Camper for? Two subsequent emails later and I was sold and going with the product. I still have a couple of Lithium Bitchy issues to work around but these work arounds were made significantly easier by the support provided by BB. I think having the parts to post openly on the forum for all to read demonstrates publicly what I saw privately.
My Fireflys were sold two hours after they arrived. I had sent an email saying I didn't need them. When I return and start project two I will post up my build for everyone.
Now back to editing footage so I can come home!!!
From Russia with Love

 

[sozomuse]

Okay, so floating the lead-acid off the lithium is a no-go since it will eventually end up taking the lithium down to 0%. 12.7v represents "fully charged" for a lead-acid, but represents "fully drained" for a Battle Born lithium. Looking at the specs for one BlueSea ACR:

https://www.bluesea.com/products/7620/ML-ACR_Automatic_Charging_Relay_-_12V_DC_500A

The disconnect is 12.75v. All wrong.

This thread, particularly this statement has given me pause on adding a Battle Born auxiliary battery to a Ram 3500 with a 220 amp alternator. The Blue Sea ML ACR 7622 is slated as the isolator.

Could you further explain the process of how the Blue Sea 7622 disconnect is all wrong paired with the Battle Born? The 7622 is a dual sensing relay (senses both starter and house batteries).

Outside of the Cetek 250s with or without the Smartpass, it seems there isn't a viable isolator that will effectively charge a lead acid with a lithium battery.

 

[dwh]

Could you further explain the process of how the Blue Sea 7622 disconnect is all wrong paired with the Battle Born?

Sure. But it's not just the Battle Born - it's probably the same for any or maybe all of the lithium iron phosphate "drop-in replacement" batteries.


First, to clear up a possible bit of confusion; yes, the ACR is dual sensing, but that is only when the batteries are *not* tied by the ACR. When they are tied, it's just one big battery bank, so there is only one voltage for the ACR to sense (both sides the same). So the dual sensing matters to cause the ACR to connect the batteries, but has nothing to do with disconnecting them.


The main problem is setting the disconnect to 12.75v.

That's fine for lead-acid to lead-acid because a fully charged lead-acid will have a resting voltage right around 12.7v - 12.8v. So as soon as either battery starts to fall below 100% charged, the ACR disconnects. Perfect.

[EDIT: I phrased that incorrectly. It should say, "as soon as the voltage of the combined battery bank starts to fall". I left the original to illustrate the difference.]

But the lithium rests fully charged at between 13.4v - 14.0v. So the voltage of the lithium will keep the voltage of both batteries (the combined battery bank) up above 12.75v and the ACR will keep the batteries connected until the voltage of the combined batteries drops below 12.75v.

And at 12.7v, the Battle Born is basically drained...

So the lithium is not only servicing the house loads - it is also constantly providing a "float charge" to the lead-acid.


So the 12.7v disconnect set point is too low. It needs to be high enough so it will disconnect when the lithium is full, not when the lithium is drained. In the case of the Battle Born, the disconnect set point should probably be 13.4v.

But the connect set point of the Blue Sea ACR is 13.0v or 13.5v. If the disconnect set point needs to be 13.4v, then the connect set point needs to be equal to or higher than the disconnect set point.

Outside of the Cetek 250s with or without the Smartpass, it seems there isn't a viable isolator that will effectively charge a lead acid with a lithium battery.

Sure there is.

An ACR will effectively charge both batteries...it just won't effectively isolate them when the charging is shut off.

A dumb ignition controlled split-charge relay will also work, as long as the alternator can handle the load.

Of course any multi-stage battery to battery charger, like those by CTEK, Sterling or Redarc will work.



Hell, even a diode-type Isolator will work. (And might work very well.)

Depending on the set point of the vehicle's voltage regulator, and where the voltage regulator gets its voltage reading...even a half volt drop through the diode might not matter.

 

[dwh]

https://www.greggdistributors.ca/pdfs/CatR124.pdf

 

[bdurbrow]

I'll add my experience purchasing batteries from Battle Born: Impressive. I had an order of Stark Power batteries that was screwed up twice and threatened to ruin my build since I didn't have batteries. I called up BB after reading these posts and they shipped my batteries the next day. They even added extra padding since I am installing them in Unimog that has pounded a few things into dust. Incredible service.

I'll update this after I've given the batteries a trial run in September, but I'm impressed with the logic they have in their BMS. Seems to be best in class. I've added a few pictures of my install progress on my instagram @gravitywellx. More to come.

Cheers.

 

[Stephan07]

My Battle Born 100AH arrives tomorrow. I will be using it as a portable solar bank as well as a dual battery set up in my 4Runner. While in the car it will sit in my rear, connected to the main battery with the National Luna kit and a 50amp fuse and will be powered by a Redarc BCDC 1225D. We will see how that works!! While out camping, it will be charged by 200W renogy panels via the BCDC1225.

I'll let you know how the build goes!! and if the Redarc can in fact charge the Battle Born!

 

[pdxfrogdog]

My Battle Born 100AH arrives tomorrow. I will be using it as a portable solar bank as well as a dual battery set up in my 4Runner. While in the car it will sit in my rear, connected to the main battery with the National Luna kit and a 50amp fuse and will be powered by a Redarc BCDC 1225D. We will see how that works!! While out camping, it will be charged by 200W renogy panels via the BCDC1225.

I'll let you know how the build goes!! and if the Redarc can in fact charge the Battle Born!

Very interested in hearing your experience with the BCDC1225D and a BB LiFePO4 battery!

 

[DiploStrat]

Hopefully the BCDC will work properly if you use the LiFePO4 setting. CTEK specifically advise against using their current D250S with LiFePO4.

But why would you combine the BCDC and the intelligent relay in the same system? What did I miss?

 

[Stephan07]

Hopefully the BCDC will work properly if you use the LiFePO4 setting. CTEK specifically advise against using their current D250S with LiFePO4.

But why would you combine the BCDC and the intelligent relay in the same system? What did I miss?

What makes you think I am installing an intelligent relay as well? The National Luna kit just a cable kit.......THough in the Old RedArc BCDC, I believe you did need a relay if you wanted both solar and Alt at the same time....Not the same case with the Newer BCDC from Redarc.


Still waiting for my damn Battle Born Battery!...Amazon has made me lazy. THough its been a week, and that's a bit long in this day and age. Its only 30lbs.

 

[DiploStrat]

… The National Luna kit just a cable kit.......

That's what I missed. I assumed that the National Luna kit was a relay. ;-)

I use a REDARC BCDC 1240D and you are correct, no relay needed.

 

[Stephan07]

Awesome....Have all the parts, now just gotta find some time this weekend to get started...I have the BCDC 1225D........We shall see!!!!

 

[Stephan07]

View attachment Interior.pdfSo I finally finished my portable solar generator/portable battery pack. It ended up being a little bigger than I expected as I intend to add a second Battle Born. I'm using the Redarc 1240D DC-DC charger. It charges the Battle Born with my solar panels, and I just finished up running my wires from the main battery back to the rear of my 4Runner and the Redarc seems to charge the BB off the alternator as well.

I'm new to all of this, and still learning as I go. But so far all seems good! I may downsize the storage container some. Heres just a few pics, interior is just before I finished up some of the wiring, but was 80% complete....View attachment Cargo area.pdf

Well crap thats a real mess of pics....Let me try and edit and change........