Are these things normal?

[ajamesr]

I've owned a lot of cars in my life, but nothing like this before. So I'm not sure what is "normal" and what I should get checked out.

My rig is a 1993 JDM imported Mitsubishi Fuso Canter FG437, 4x4, 4.2L 4D33, 5 speed transmission, only about 45,000 miles (73,000 KM), weighs about 11,000 LBS with the camper conversion.

So first off. How much is normal smoking when starting up? I have a Ford van with a 7.3 Powerstroke, and it lets off a big puff of smoke every time I start it, but then quickly goes away. However with my FG, if I start it from cold, it smokes until it's almost at full operating temperature, so like 5 to 10 minutes. Once it's warmed it, there is no smoke. Normal or concern?

Secondly: When I hit 58MPH (93 KPH), the sound of the engine changes. Up until that, it's really quiet and smooth. I think it's about 2,800 RPM, it gets louder and has a "rattle" type sound to it, I was trying to think what it sounded like, and the closest I can come up with is a playing card in a bicycle spoke. I try to keep the engine under that mark, but sometimes on the highways or going up hills, I need a little extra power. Normal or bad?

Lastly: The brakes. If I'm going under 30, they work flawlessly. But if I'm going like 60, and try to stop quickly, they whole motorhome shakes really bad. It feels just like when disk brakes get warped. BUT my FG has 4 wheel Drum brakes, so no disks, plus, whenever I've had a warped brake rotor, you can feel it no matter what speed you're going. This one is only when I stop from high speeds. This truck has a brake system that's totally new to me: It seems to by hydraulically boosted? There is a pump connected to the back of one of the Alternators, that pumps engine oil, and makes the brakes work. Because I've never seen a system like this, I'm not sure what normal is?

And for a bonus question, if you all don't mind, while on the topic of brakes: can anyone give me tips on using the engine brake (Jake brake)? This is my first one, and it works great, but I wanna make sure I'm using it to the best of it's ability.

Thank you all for all your help, past and future, you've helped so much.

 

[Czechsix]

Normal smoking when starting up? None. Especially with a low mileage engine like that.

Rattles generally aren't good, but no way to really tell without hearing it, or being in the vehicle.

Regarding the shaking under heavy braking from speed - check suspension components, steering components, etc. Something is worn out, or several somethings. I'd also check to see if the body and coach are solidly attached.

You have a vacuum pump on the alternator, gives you enough negative pressure you can get the brake booster to work. Diesels don't produce enough vacuum on their own.

 

[seangrips]

Ive got a 98' 4D33, smokes lots when started after sitting a few hrs, think its fuel lines draining back and letting air into the injectors. clears up after a couple 5 minute .

Mine can sound like a train or old fishing boat at around 90kph, woom wooom wooom woom. higher speed goes away as does lower.

I had ******** shaking the whole truck when i first put SS's on. Sent the tyre, rim and drum all attached to a brake specialist, he spun the inside of the drum as one unit. now have the rim mark to match the drum, and never change that position. no shake for 15yrs.

Use the exhaust brake all the time, never turn it off. had to replace the chamber twice in 420,000km. hate not having it working, you really feel how heavy the truck is without that assistance

 

[kerry]

I assume the 4d33 has glowplugs. Are they working correctly? Malfunctioning glow plugs can produce smoke on start up. I once owned a CAT 3208 without glow plugs. In temperatures below about 40 degrees, it would produce a cloud of smoke big enough to engulf a whole city block. It took about 20 minutes before the smoke went away. That engine had about 20k miles on it.

 

[yabanja]

The truck does not use the glow plugs to start unless it is below 25 degrees F.

First issue: the smoking
Our truck smokes slightly on startup when it is very cold or we are at elevation above 8000 feet. It goes away within 5 minutes.
The smoking you have described seems excessive for your model.
Here are a couple likely scenarios:
1. Bad valve stem seals. These are the seals which prevent oil from the cylinder head from leaking into the combustion chambers. Typically they drip oil very slowly. When you turn off the truck the accumulated oil in the cylinder head slowly drips down into the combustion chambers over the course of a few hours. When you do a cold start it will burn off this extra oil for a while until it has burned away completely and the smoke goes away. While the truck is running the slow drip into the combustion chambers is negligible and won't be enough to cause smoking. Replacing the valve stem seals is fairly straightforward and can be done by a competent mechanic without pulling the cylinder head by putting compressed air into the combustion chambers to hold the valves closed.
2. Low compression. If your truck has low compression in one or more cylinders then it can't achieve proper combustion in that cylinder until the engine is warm. The other cylinders will keep the engine running while the poor compression cylinders pump out all the unburnt fuel as smoke until it warms enough to achieve compression in all cylinders. The compression should be tested. The simplest cause of low compression is Valve adjustment-which is required every 30K miles. If the valves have been allowed to get too far out of adjustment it is possible that there is a burnt valve which will require a cylinder head overhaul. The second likely cause of low compression is bad piston rings which will require a complete engine overhaul.
3. Fueling problem. Bad injectors will leak fuel into the combustion chambers while the engine is off causing a similar effect to bad valve stem seals. You can pull the injectors and have them cleaned and tested at a fuel injection shop for a reasonable cost. I wouldn't rule out a bad fuel injection pump. These are not my area of specialty but I know they are very expensive.

Second issue: Noise.

It is nearly impossible to diagnose noises over the internet. Depending on where you are located there may be people on these forums who know a good mechanic near you. You have described the noise as being vehicle speed related as opposed to engine speed related. This leads me to think drivetrain- would recommend draining fluids in front and rear differentials as well as transfer case and transmission. Keep samples of each and examine them for signs of Metal sludge and or copper flecks. If you really want to get fancy you can send them in for a chemical analysis which is helpful in determining wear. It could also be a wheel bearing, or driveshaft joint. You can test the driveshafts by looking for play in the joints. They can also be sent to a driveline shop for testing/rebalancing fairly inexpensively.

Third: Brakes

You likely have a warped drum. They will need to be taken off and machined round again. If they are out of spec they will need replacement. You will want to replace the shoes while you are in there. This is a big job.


Good luck and keep us posted.

Allan

 

[kerry]

The truck does not use the glow plugs to start unless it is below 25 degrees F.

First issue: the smoking
Our truck smokes slightly on startup when it is very cold or we are at elevation above 8000 feet. It goes away within 5 minutes.
The smoking you have described seems excessive for your model.
Here are a couple likely scenarios:
1. Bad valve stem seals. These are the seals which prevent oil from the cylinder head from leaking into the combustion chambers. Typically they drip oil very slowly. When you turn off the truck the accumulated oil in the cylinder head slowly drips down into the combustion chambers over the course of a few hours. When you do a cold start it will burn off this extra oil for a while until it has burned away completely and the smoke goes away. While the truck is running the slow drip into the combustion chambers is negligible and won't be enough to cause smoking. Replacing the valve stem seals is fairly straightforward and can be done by a competent mechanic without pulling the cylinder head by putting compressed air into the combustion chambers to hold the valves closed.
2. Low compression. If your truck has low compression in one or more cylinders then it can't achieve proper combustion in that cylinder until the engine is warm. The other cylinders will keep the engine running while the poor compression cylinders pump out all the unburnt fuel as smoke until it warms enough to achieve compression in all cylinders. The compression should be tested. The simplest cause of low compression is Valve adjustment-which is required every 30K miles. If the valves have been allowed to get too far out of adjustment it is possible that there is a burnt valve which will require a cylinder head overhaul. The second likely cause of low compression is bad piston rings which will require a complete engine overhaul.
3. Fueling problem. Bad injectors will leak fuel into the combustion chambers while the engine is off causing a similar effect to bad valve stem seals. You can pull the injectors and have them cleaned and tested at a fuel injection shop for a reasonable cost. I wouldn't rule out a bad fuel injection pump. These are not my area of specialty but I know they are very expensive.

Second issue: Noise.

It is nearly impossible to diagnose noises over the internet. Depending on where you are located there may be people on these forums who know a good mechanic near you. You have described the noise as being vehicle speed related as opposed to engine speed related. This leads me to think drivetrain- would recommend draining fluids in front and rear differentials as well as transfer case and transmission. Keep samples of each and examine them for signs of Metal sludge and or copper flecks. If you really want to get fancy you can send them in for a chemical analysis which is helpful in determining wear. It could also be a wheel bearing, or driveshaft joint. You can test the driveshafts by looking for play in the joints. They can also be sent to a driveline shop for testing/rebalancing fairly inexpensively.

Third: Brakes

You likely have a warped drum. They will need to be taken off and machined round again. If they are out of spec they will need replacement. You will want to replace the shoes while you are in there. This is a big job.


Good luck and keep us posted.

Allan

To clarify the glow plugs: I have a 4d34. The glow plug light only comes on at low temperatures (exactly when I haven’t calculated) but the glow plugs function every time I start this. I know this because I have a voltmeter in my cigarette lighter. When I turn the key to ‘on’ the voltage drops considerably as the glow plugs energize. If you don’t start the engine and leave the key in the start position, after about 20 seconds, maybe less, you can hear the glow plug relay click off and battery voltage returns to normal.

 

[ajamesr]

To clarify the glow plugs: I have a 4d34. The glow plug light only comes on at low temperatures (exactly when I haven’t calculated) but the glow plugs function every time I start this. I know this because I have a voltmeter in my cigarette lighter. When I turn the key to ‘on’ the voltage drops considerably as the glow plugs energize. If you don’t start the engine and leave the key in the start position, after about 20 seconds, maybe less, you can hear the glow plug relay click off and battery voltage returns to normal.

I was wondering about that. My light also only comes on when it's really cold, but I can hear a relay click off after 10 or 15 seconds, and I've noticed that if it's cold, but not cold enough for the light to come on, it still starts a lot easier if I wait until I hear the relay click off before starting.

 

[ajamesr]

Normal smoking when starting up? None. Especially with a low mileage engine like that.

Rattles generally aren't good, but no way to really tell without hearing it, or being in the vehicle.

Regarding the shaking under heavy braking from speed - check suspension components, steering components, etc. Something is worn out, or several somethings. I'd also check to see if the body and coach are solidly attached.

You have a vacuum pump on the alternator, gives you enough negative pressure you can get the brake booster to work. Diesels don't produce enough vacuum on their own.

Thank you for your reply, I guess it's time to take it into a shop. I've been avoiding doing that, not because I don't want to, but because I don't know how to find a shop that will have any idea how to work on this thing. I feel like I would have to not only find a diesel shop, but one that knows about old, imported, 4 cyl engines.

 

[ajamesr]

Ive got a 98' 4D33, smokes lots when started after sitting a few hrs, think its fuel lines draining back and letting air into the injectors. clears up after a couple 5 minute .

Mine can sound like a train or old fishing boat at around 90kph, woom wooom wooom woom. higher speed goes away as does lower.

I had ******** shaking the whole truck when i first put SS's on. Sent the tyre, rim and drum all attached to a brake specialist, he spun the inside of the drum as one unit. now have the rim mark to match the drum, and never change that position. no shake for 15yrs.

Use the exhaust brake all the time, never turn it off. had to replace the chamber twice in 420,000km. hate not having it working, you really feel how heavy the truck is without that assistance

Mine doesn't smoke a lot by any means, it's just a steady amount of smoke until it's warm.

mine also gets loud around 90kph, but I've been to scared to go much higher, I always felt like that sound was the engine's way of telling me, that was as fast as it wanted to go.

Mine still has the stock rims on it (duel in the rear). Did yours shake all the time or just when stopping?

Thanks for the engine brake tip, I was wondering about using it all the time. So far I've only been turning it on when I'm going down hill or slowing down quickly.

 

[ajamesr]

I assume the 4d33 has glowplugs. Are they working correctly? Malfunctioning glow plugs can produce smoke on start up. I once owned a CAT 3208 without glow plugs. In temperatures below about 40 degrees, it would produce a cloud of smoke big enough to engulf a whole city block. It took about 20 minutes before the smoke went away. That engine had about 20k miles on it.

It has glow plugs, but the light only comes on when it's really cold out (below freezing) they seem to work as they should. There is no big cloud of smoke, it's just a steady amount of smoke for about 10 minutes. Like you only see it if you're standing behind the truck.

 

[ajamesr]

The truck does not use the glow plugs to start unless it is below 25 degrees F.

First issue: the smoking
Our truck smokes slightly on startup when it is very cold or we are at elevation above 8000 feet. It goes away within 5 minutes.
The smoking you have described seems excessive for your model.
Here are a couple likely scenarios:
1. Bad valve stem seals. These are the seals which prevent oil from the cylinder head from leaking into the combustion chambers. Typically they drip oil very slowly. When you turn off the truck the accumulated oil in the cylinder head slowly drips down into the combustion chambers over the course of a few hours. When you do a cold start it will burn off this extra oil for a while until it has burned away completely and the smoke goes away. While the truck is running the slow drip into the combustion chambers is negligible and won't be enough to cause smoking. Replacing the valve stem seals is fairly straightforward and can be done by a competent mechanic without pulling the cylinder head by putting compressed air into the combustion chambers to hold the valves closed.
2. Low compression. If your truck has low compression in one or more cylinders then it can't achieve proper combustion in that cylinder until the engine is warm. The other cylinders will keep the engine running while the poor compression cylinders pump out all the unburnt fuel as smoke until it warms enough to achieve compression in all cylinders. The compression should be tested. The simplest cause of low compression is Valve adjustment-which is required every 30K miles. If the valves have been allowed to get too far out of adjustment it is possible that there is a burnt valve which will require a cylinder head overhaul. The second likely cause of low compression is bad piston rings which will require a complete engine overhaul.
3. Fueling problem. Bad injectors will leak fuel into the combustion chambers while the engine is off causing a similar effect to bad valve stem seals. You can pull the injectors and have them cleaned and tested at a fuel injection shop for a reasonable cost. I wouldn't rule out a bad fuel injection pump. These are not my area of specialty but I know they are very expensive.

Second issue: Noise.

It is nearly impossible to diagnose noises over the internet. Depending on where you are located there may be people on these forums who know a good mechanic near you. You have described the noise as being vehicle speed related as opposed to engine speed related. This leads me to think drivetrain- would recommend draining fluids in front and rear differentials as well as transfer case and transmission. Keep samples of each and examine them for signs of Metal sludge and or copper flecks. If you really want to get fancy you can send them in for a chemical analysis which is helpful in determining wear. It could also be a wheel bearing, or driveshaft joint. You can test the driveshafts by looking for play in the joints. They can also be sent to a driveline shop for testing/rebalancing fairly inexpensively.

Third: Brakes

You likely have a warped drum. They will need to be taken off and machined round again. If they are out of spec they will need replacement. You will want to replace the shoes while you are in there. This is a big job.


Good luck and keep us posted.

Allan

First off, thank you so much for taking the time to write out such a detailed reply, I really appreciate that.

Sounds like I will need to do some more digging to figure out the smoke issue, if it's above 60 outside, it doesn't seem to smoke at all, or at least not enough for me to see it. I've had valve guides go out on a gas car before but never a diesel, so maybe they are different. A few other people have suggested injectors, so I might just pull them and get them tested. Thanks for that recommendation.

I know it's impossible to diagnose noise without hearing it. I guess my hope was that people would chime in and say "Oh yeah, all those imported 4cyls get really loud at a certain RPM". When I was reading threads about super singles, a number of people talked about how the bigger diameter tires made the engine much quieter at highway speeds dues to lower RPM's, so I thought maybe being really noisy at speed is normal. Also I misrepresented the sound, it is 100% related to engine speed and not vehicle speed, I could be stopped with the transmission in natural and rev the engine to 2900 RMP and it'll produce that sound. I only talk about MPH because on the highway is the only time I normally get the RPMs up that high. I normally shift before it gets to there, unless I'm trying to accelerate up a hill or something, and in that case, it makes the rattle sound in every gear.

I've never had warped drums, so I'm not sure what they would feel like. However I have had countless cars with warped rotors, and when them, I could be going 10 MPH and pushing the brakes would make the brake peddle push back against my foot with every rotation of the tire, and anything faster than that, I could feel the car shake (and the peddle move). It has always just been a faster shake at higher speeds. Yet with my FG, it's not that way, anything below like 40 MPH, I could stop as fast as I want and I don't feel anything abnormal at all. It's only if I'm going highway speed and have to come to a stop quickly that it does it, and the other odd thing, is the shaking doesn't seem to slow down as the truck slows down, if it's shaking, its going to keep shaking until I'm almost to a full stop. Does any of this sound like symptoms of a warped drum? I'm asking honestly, because I have no idea. It seems strange to me. It almost feels like the shaking it more related to engine RPM rather than vehicle speed, but I can't tell for sure.

What forum would be best suited to ask for a recommended shop? I live in Oregon (usa). And I would love to find a shop that knows these old imported 4cly diesels. Most mechanics I've talked to around here look at me like I crazy for even considering they could work on such a thing. They act like it's form another planet.

Thanks again.

 

[kerry]

Have someone drive beside you when things are shaking and see if they can identify a wheel it is coming from

 

[kerry]

Post a video of the smoke when the engine is cold

 

[yabanja]

First off, thank you so much for taking the time to write out such a detailed reply, I really appreciate that.

Sounds like I will need to do some more digging to figure out the smoke issue, if it's above 60 outside, it doesn't seem to smoke at all, or at least not enough for me to see it. I've had valve guides go out on a gas car before but never a diesel, so maybe they are different. A few other people have suggested injectors, so I might just pull them and get them tested. Thanks for that recommendation.

I know it's impossible to diagnose noise without hearing it. I guess my hope was that people would chime in and say "Oh yeah, all those imported 4cyls get really loud at a certain RPM". When I was reading threads about super singles, a number of people talked about how the bigger diameter tires made the engine much quieter at highway speeds dues to lower RPM's, so I thought maybe being really noisy at speed is normal. Also I misrepresented the sound, it is 100% related to engine speed and not vehicle speed, I could be stopped with the transmission in natural and rev the engine to 2900 RMP and it'll produce that sound. I only talk about MPH because on the highway is the only time I normally get the RPMs up that high. I normally shift before it gets to there, unless I'm trying to accelerate up a hill or something, and in that case, it makes the rattle sound in every gear.

I've never had warped drums, so I'm not sure what they would feel like. However I have had countless cars with warped rotors, and when them, I could be going 10 MPH and pushing the brakes would make the brake peddle push back against my foot with every rotation of the tire, and anything faster than that, I could feel the car shake (and the peddle move). It has always just been a faster shake at higher speeds. Yet with my FG, it's not that way, anything below like 40 MPH, I could stop as fast as I want and I don't feel anything abnormal at all. It's only if I'm going highway speed and have to come to a stop quickly that it does it, and the other odd thing, is the shaking doesn't seem to slow down as the truck slows down, if it's shaking, its going to keep shaking until I'm almost to a full stop. Does any of this sound like symptoms of a warped drum? I'm asking honestly, because I have no idea. It seems strange to me. It almost feels like the shaking it more related to engine RPM rather than vehicle speed, but I can't tell for sure.

What forum would be best suited to ask for a recommended shop? I live in Oregon (usa). And I would love to find a shop that knows these old imported 4cly diesels. Most mechanics I've talked to around here look at me like I crazy for even considering they could work on such a thing. They act like it's form another planet.

Thanks again.

Mild smoking when it is cold out is closer to normal and of less concern. We regularly drive our truck at or near redline on the freeway for hours at a time with no odd sounds. Rattling at higher rpms from the engine could be heat shields on the exhaust, the exhaust itself, valve adjustment, or a bad turbo impeller. Once again, really hard to diagnose sounds over the internet.

I experienced similar brake symptoms from rotors on the race track last weekend. The first half lap the brakes were fine but when they got heat in them they would become horribly warped. Like jowl shaking warped. Would still suspect a warped drum from your description. I also always use the exhaust brake.

 

[kerry]

I agree it’s likely a warped drum but I wouldn’t rule out an out of balance wheel/drum with the imbalance initiated by braking. I would at least get all wheels balanced. If you search on ‘death wobble’ on this forum you will see that for some reason, FG’s are prone to violent shaking, I cured mine (I think) with a full balance of all wheels and a rotation