Best insulation for aluminum sides, and tent, for popup camper shells like GoFast, Topo, OVRLND, etc?

[Dave in AZ]

I've read a ton of threads here on folks modify their truck camper shells with insulation for winter camping. But find that I either forgot, or got confused, as to best actual product to buy.

What is the best insulation for doing the thin aluminum walls, and also the canvas or poly popup tent? Some that Ive seen mentioned are reflectix, then a flexible roll of 5mm foam core with foil outer, then a stiffer foam core foil panel from HD.

What is best to work with, what thickness is needed? Best way to apply, either velcro or caulk adhesive or 3m tape? I'm sure folks have tried it all and know which is better, thx!

 

[llamalander]

Refletix is basically mylar, very low insulating value without a sealed airspace next to it, but it is the international sign that someone is living in a vehicle.
the airspace and insulation value of a double-layer of bubble wrap or 5mm open-cell foam is not that impressive R-6.5/ inch is only 1.2 for the foam, less than 1 for the bubble wrap. Wood is about R-1(per inch), all of these are likely better than a piece of glass, but for non-windows, there are better options.
For the rigid portion, there are a number of different foam boards people cut to fit--
EPS = expanded polystyrene, R-4.6/inch, the stuff cheap coolers & packaging is made of, the most water resistant but prone to damage.
XPS = extruded polystyrene R-5/inch, smooth-faced and often colored pink or blue. Theoretically recyclable, but made with some un-friendly blowing agents, so not really eco anything. Easy to cut and shape, fairly durable.
Polyiso, or polyisocynurate, R-5.8/inch and the most expensive of the three, some comes with a foil face, which is a radiant heat reflector and moisture barrier.
Any of these can be glued/taped or friction-fit to the sides of a camper and will make a noticeable difference to the rate of heat loss, plenty of folks cover them with automotive carpet to protect them as well.
Above, some form of fabric based insulation is probably going to fit best and be removable for closing the top. Primaloft synthetic insulation is popular, so is loose sheeps wool, sewn into fitted panels that press against the tent walls.
However you insulate, the surface area/volume ratio on a small camper is very high, and there is not enough room to insulate it like one would a house, so it will loose heat comparatively quickly. One can either use a low-temp sleeping bag or electric blanket /pad to stay comfortable, or a portable heater that can produce enough heat to offset the loss through the fairly conductive walls. Propane and diesel units can generally run all night safely (not killing you with CO or catching things on fire), but propane produces water in the process of combustion, which can be an issue in more humid places.

 

[Dave in AZ]

Refletix is basically mylar, very low insulating value without a sealed airspace next to it, but it is the international sign that someone is living in a vehicle.
the airspace and insulation value of a double-layer of bubble wrap or 5mm open-cell foam is not that impressive R-6.5/ inch is only 1.2 for the foam, less than 1 for the bubble wrap. Wood is about R-1, all of these are likely better than a piece of glass, but for non-windows, there are better options.
For the rigid portion, there are a number of different foam boards people cut to fit--
EPS = expanded polystyrene, R-4.6/inch, the stuff cheap coolers & packaging is made of, the most water resistant but prone to damage.
XPS = extruded polystyrene R-5/inch, smooth-faced and often colored pink or blue. Theoretically recyclable, but made with some un-friendly blowing agents, so not really eco anything. Easy to cut and shape, fairly durable.
Polyiso, or polyisocynurate, R-5.8/inch and the most expensive of the three, some comes with a foil face, which is a radiant heat reflector and moisture barrier.
Any of these can be glued/taped or friction-fit to the sides of a camper and will make a noticeable difference to the rate of heat loss, plenty of folks cover them with automotive carpet to protect them as well.
Above, some form of fabric based insulation is probably going to fit best and be removable for closing the top. Primaloft synthetic insulation is popular, so is loose sheeps wool, sewn into fitted panels that press against the tent walls.
However you insulate, the surface area/volume ratio on a small camper is very high, and there is not enough room to insulate it like one would a house, so it will loose heat comparatively quickly. One can either use a low-temp sleeping bag or electric blanket /pad to stay comfortable, or a portable heater that can produce enough heat to offset the loss through the fairly conductive walls. Propane and diesel units can generally run all night safely (not killing you with CO or catching things on fire), but propane produces water in the process of combustion, which can be an issue in more humid places.

Thx for your good rundown!

 

[Ozarker]

Keep in mind, R values are rated by volume/space, per inch, asking what is best or making that claim may not be correct or accurate without mentioning the application.

Saying "wood is about R 1" may not hold hot air, how thick is it? And, a 4x6 is not 4 or 6 times better than a 1x1. I had a 1600 sq. ft. (half second story) A frame cabin, built with 3x6 t&g oak, outside, tarpaper and composite roofing. The ends were mostly windows and wood, the place didn't have one inch of "insulation" in it. With one cast iron wood stove, we opened a couple windows to cool the place down when it was -12 degrees outside.

All that to ask; what is the size of the unit and capacities for heating and cooling?

I can cool down a cardboard box in 100 degree weather with the right AC unit or to a toasty 75 degrees in zero degree weather with the right heat source.

That is extreme, only to make the point; IT"S A FREAKING CAMPER, NOT YOUR HOUSE!

What is going to be used to heat/cool the unit?

My bet is that you didn't really read all the insulation threads on this site, like most everyone who asks "what's the best insulation", usually it's just blue board from the lumberyard stores and Great Stuff.

 

[Dave in AZ]

Keep in mind, R values are rated by volume/space, per inch, asking what is best or making that claim may not be correct or accurate without mentioning the application.

Saying "wood is about R 1" may not hold hot air, how thick is it? And, a 4x6 is not 4 or 6 times better than a 1x1. I had a 1600 sq. ft. (half second story) A frame cabin, built with 3x6 t&g oak, outside, tarpaper and composite roofing. The ends were mostly windows and wood, the place didn't have one inch of "insulation" in it. With one cast iron wood stove, we opened a couple windows to cool the place down when it was -12 degrees outside.

All that to ask; what is the size of the unit and capacities for heating and cooling?

I can cool down a cardboard box in 100 degree weather with the right AC unit or to a toasty 75 degrees in zero degree weather with the right heat source.

That is extreme, only to make the point; IT"S A FREAKING CAMPER, NOT YOUR HOUSE!

What is going to be used to heat/cool the unit?

My bet is that you didn't really read all the insulation threads on this site, like most everyone who asks "what's the best insulation", usually it's just blue board from the lumberyard stores and Great Stuff.

I guess that 8 hrs of solid reading and video watching is enough prestudy to be allowed to ask a question on the internet... as I said in OP, I have not been able to determine which option is best for this application.

As I said in the OP title, it is a popup truck camper shell like OVRLND or GoFast. It is actually a Tune M1, like an Alucab, but folks won't be familiar probably. I plan on using a chinese diesel heater. Based on a day of vids on thise, the 8kw is the exact same as 5kw, no actual extra heat, just a marketing scam, and the 5kw is really about 4.8kw, a copy of the Esparsomething.

Based on reports from multiple folks in various similar campers, at 32f even with the 5kw diesel, it wasn't enough for uninsulated camper.

Various threads exist of folks who just decided to insulate and used xps pinkboard from HD, or polyiso from Lowes, or reflectix mylar bubblewrap, or a 5mm foam foil roll. Few if any have reported on issues, just that they did it. They all have an R value of 5 to 6 per inch it seems.

What I am looking for are details to decide which one is better for various.
1. Install, half inch hardboard polyiso with foil, cut to size? Or flexible soft foam foil-- which is easier to work with and gives better end results
2. 3M tape, or 3M super77 spray adhesive, or some kind of caulk? Any adhesion issues?
3. Popup tent use, is 5mm foam with foil flexible enough to stay in place when putting tent down, or does it have to be removed each time?
4. Just any pro con comments from folks that have used to insulate small truck bed shell popups.

 

[simple]

What conditions are you insulating for?

Did you see the insulation system system I did in my Spacekap build?

Spacekap Diablo 6 Build

Spacekap Diablo 6 Build I love the idea of open source so I'm going to attempt to document some of the things I did in my build so that others may draw from my experience. Last year I purchased 2 Spacekaps with the intention of building a couple different prototype layouts for testing to...

forum.expeditionportal.com

 

[Dave in AZ]

What conditions are you insulating for?

Did you see the insulation system system I did in my Spacekap build?

Spacekap Diablo 6 Build

Spacekap Diablo 6 Build I love the idea of open source so I'm going to attempt to document some of the things I did in my build so that others may draw from my experience. Last year I purchased 2 Spacekaps with the intention of building a couple different prototype layouts for testing to...

forum.expeditionportal.com

Thx simple, will take a look, did not see that. Planning for this winter in Northern AZ, NM, Utah, so maybe 20f some nights. With 5kw diesel heater, or 8kw if they really exist and aren't just 5kw with false advertising (as all youtube tests I've seen indicate...)

 

[Dave in AZ]

Found this blog on using 3M super90 spray adhesive to bond carpet insulation to camper shell. Just good for process notes and report of durability after some time. These guys own a Tune now.

DIY Camper Shell Liner | Take The Truck

No one wants condensation dripping down on their sleeping bag, face, and gear while truck camping. This DIY guide to installing a camper shell liner, will help you insulate your camper shell, cover up the ugly exposed fiberglass, and keep that condensation from ruining your truck bed camping adventu

www.takethetruck.com

 

[simple]

Thx simple, will take a look, did not see that. Planning for this winter in Northern AZ, NM, Utah, so maybe 20f some nights. With 5kw diesel heater, or 8kw if they really exist and aren't just 5kw with false advertising (as all youtube tests I've seen indicate...)

I just ordered a 5kw and 8kw from Vevor's site. They are the same price so who knows. Were they a brand that was tested?

For insulation around the pop up fabric, you might be able to find an inexpensive polyfil or thinsulate blanket that you could cut down so it hangs like a curtain. Maybe a fiberglass rod for a batten to hold its shape and velcro or ties to hold it in place. I also thought I saw on the Tune site that they are working on a winter lining solution.

In the trailer I'm building right now, there is an out later of EPS between the framing next to the exterior aluminum skin. On the interior of that will be a half inch layer of XPS covering all of the aluminum framing. I think I'm going to panel the inside with corrugated plastic sheeting.

 

[Dave in AZ]

I just ordered a 5kw and 8kw from Vevor's site. They are the same price so who knows. Were they a brand that was tested?

Apparently they are all exact copies of the German Eberspacher 4 or 5kw one, with no deviations. Which is why they are all pretty good. The 2kw version is a cooy of the other one hmm, Webasto, which is slightly different. Some guy on Youtube takes them apart and benchtests. 5 and 8kw all same, pump is same amount of fuel, and when tested they out out same btu. I watched 16 of his vids this week.

 

[msimmo]

I am in the middle of designing a pop up wedge camper for myself with either soft or semi rigid walls and have been thinking through the insulation options as well.

One option I have been considering is to use used military issue therm-a-rest sleeping pads, cut and modified for the dimensions of the wedge.
They are fairly light, can have the air sucked out of them to make them more compact for stowing away when the wedge is down, and the military surplus ones are not that expensive.

I am thinking of having either a single or double layer, they are 1in thick. I'm not sure of the exact r value of these specific pads but usually 1in therm-a-rest style pads have a r value around 2.5. I would hope to connect all the sections with pneumatic tubing and then connect that to my on board air system to allow quick inflation and to be able to put a compressed air vacuum puller on to allow quick deflation. I would have them fold up to the roof first before lowering the wedge and packing in the walls.

I'm still on the fence about this idea, It would probably have about half the r value of rigid foam insulation, 5 vs 10; but with a heater inside as well it may be doable and a good compromise when considering the packability vs 2in thick rigid foam.

Before having this thought my Ideas were either a quilted insulation layer that hung from the top, filled with poly sleeping bag insulation; or using very thin foam board insulation to keep the folded up thickness low.

None of these ideas provide exceptional insulation but when dealing with a camper with folding walls either soft or semi rigid, compromising for packability seems to be necessary in my opinion.

 

[simple]

Apparently they are all exact copies of the German Eberspacher 4 or 5kw one, with no deviations. Which is why they are all pretty good. The 2kw version is a cooy of the other one hmm, Webasto, which is slightly different. Some guy on Youtube takes them apart and benchtests. 5 and 8kw all same, pump is same amount of fuel, and when tested they out out same btu. I watched 16 of his vids this week.

Nice. I've watched a handful of his videos a year or so ago. They are great!

 

[rruff]

Planning for this winter in Northern AZ, NM, Utah, so maybe 20f some nights.

Ha! Was that 20f a joke? Or did you mean -20f? I go to the warmest place in the western US desert and see 20f more than once in winter.

Do you already have the camper? If not, I think something besides aluminum and a tent would be much more suitable for real winter.

You don't need a lot of insulation... with a 5kw heater, even none would probably work. Can you get a heater with lower output? I like having good insulation so that minimal heat is necessary and there is minimal condensation.

 

[Dave in AZ]

Ha! Was that 20f a joke? Or did you mean -20f? I go to the warmest place in the western US desert and see 20f more than once in winter.

Do you already have the camper? If not, I think something besides aluminum and a tent would be much more suitable for real winter.

You don't need a lot of insulation... with a 5kw heater, even none would probably work. Can you get a heater with lower output? I like having good insulation so that minimal heat is necessary and there is minimal condensation.

It's been a while since I spent night camping in northern AZ. Here near Phx, it is often 20f to 32f during winter, while I am hunting before dawn, then warms up to 60f. If it is -20f, I will be drivinh south and lower!

I just paid for this Tune M1 truck camper shell, aluminum with popup tent. So now I'm committed for a bit. Will receive in Jan. Folks with them say 30f or so with winds, the 5kw diesel needs some insulation to keep up. But they are new to market this year, so no one has gone thru a winter in one and seen how much insulation yet. However, all the truck popup camper shells are very similar.

These Chinese diesel heaters are well rated copies of the German ones all truckers use. They have good temperature control if required. They are a dry heat, no moisture, as the combustion is all venter outside and air is heated over combustion chamber fins. So much better than propane heaters, and with untold millions of hours road testing by every long haul trucker.

Anyhow, this is all just prep so my wife enjoys it and is warm, which will pay big dividends

 

[rruff]

It's been a while since I spent night camping in northern AZ. Here near Phx, it is often 20f to 32f during winter, while I am hunting before dawn, then warms up to 60f. If it is -20f, I will be drivinh south and lower!

I just paid for this Tune M1 truck camper shell, aluminum with popup tent. So now I'm committed for a bit. Will receive in Jan. Folks with them say 30f or so with winds, the 5kw diesel needs some insulation to keep up. But they are new to market this year, so no one has gone thru a winter in one and seen how much insulation yet. However, all the truck popup camper shells are very similar.

These Chinese diesel heaters are well rated copies of the German ones all truckers use. They have good temperature control if required. They are a dry heat, no moisture, as the combustion is all venter outside and air is heated over combustion chamber fins. So much better than propane heaters, and with untold millions of hours road testing by every long haul trucker.

Anyhow, this is all just prep so my wife enjoys it and is warm, which will pay big dividends

Teens will be pretty common in winter up there, with the occasional storm going below 0f... and occasionally -20f.

A Bedrug would be a good idea. And something between the frame members of the camper, but no need to to have a lot. R2 would be plenty. Maybe 1/2" neoprene foam?