Best suspension for a daily driver.

kayak15

Observer
Just wanting some feedback on a thought.
Vehicle: 2012 JK Rubicon unlimited

Which suspension system would be better for daily commuting and weekend exploring? Choices are the AEV 4.5" premium or the RockKrawler 3.5" PRO With RRD shocks. My streets are absolute crap in town so on road is important. Commute is 100 miles daily so comfort and dependability are also important. Local off roaring includes Uwarrie National Forest. Would tackle an annual Colorado trip and some Jeep Jamborees along with a ton of camping and general exploring b

So what does the Expedition Portal community think would be the best? Going with 37's too. Thanks

Kevin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

bob91yj

Resident **************
100 mile commute/weekend offroading and 37's is going to take a toll on the entire drivetrain. I don't mean to be a downer, but I think commuting in a rig that built is going to get old. I'll be interested to see how it works out for you. Good luck, and congrats on the new Jeep!
 

BadPunkin

Observer
AEV 4.5" with 37 Toyos DD rides very nice
 

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Explore

Observer
Agree with BadPumkin, but 100 miles daily for a commute on 37's?? Its the gas and drivetrain I would be concered with...
 

bob91yj

Resident **************
AEV 4.5" with 37 Toyos DD rides very nice

No denying you can make them ride nice, just not sure I'd want to make a 100 mile daily commute in one. My LJ is nicely built, rides great (it better with all the $$$ I dumped in it) it's still not my commuter vehicle of choice on my 60 mile daily drive.

I'm getting old and fat though, maybe that's my problem!:sombrero: There was a time when I commuted in my SOA rockcrawler YJ, only a bikini top and half doors, and before I understood the value of good shocks.
 

redthies

Renaissance Redneck
I would say go with the AEV set up. I have never heard a negative word on their progressive springs. If their 2.5" coils were out, I would have bought them instead of OME... (I think). They are a supplier/re-seller for Jeep, so probably the least of all evils for warranty issues. Although with 4.5"s and 37s warranty claims are going to be a challenge at best.

If I were to dd our '11 100 miles a day, I would also give the AEV 3.5" and 35s a thought. I But, I don't have rock crawling in my area, or my future, so 35s are the most I would ever need. A quiet tread pattern is a bigger concern than size in my mind. KM2s or Procomp Xtreme ATs are some of my favorites.

Remember to post pics when you have it lifted and on your 37s!
 

comac90

Observer
Just wanting some feedback on a thought.
Vehicle: 2012 JK Rubicon unlimited

Which suspension system would be better for daily commuting and weekend exploring? Choices are the AEV 4.5" premium or the RockKrawler 3.5" PRO With RRD shocks. My streets are absolute crap in town so on road is important. Commute is 100 miles daily so comfort and dependability are also important. Local off roaring includes Uwarrie National Forest. Would tackle an annual Colorado trip and some Jeep Jamborees along with a ton of camping and general exploring b

So what does the Expedition Portal community think would be the best? Going with 37's too. Thanks

Kevin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You're asking about nearly exactly what I did/am building ....

As others have said, 37s are pushing it, IMO. With 37s you enter the realm of having to regear and upgrade shafts right from the start; not to mention the ride is going to suffer with 37s.

I did 35s with AEV's 3.5" (along with the MILSPEC front and their rear bumper/tire carrier). I wasn't going to DD it. But, after getting the lift on I liked the ride so much, I sold my DD (5 days ago).

I commute 42 miles/day and will use the truck for family camping, wheeling in Uwharrie, and one trip a year out to my old stomping grounds in Colorado and Moab.

With the 35s, 4.10s, and the auto tranny, I do not feel any need to regear. I am still going to upgrade shafts, do something to replace/sleeve the front axle housing, add some skid plating, and replace the rocksliders. But, as it sits, I feel confident I can hit most of the trails I want to run anywhere in the country - I'd have no issues hitting something like Pritchett Canyon in Moab, then heading into the Utah backcountry, then driving back across country to Asheville. The 35s will provide less stress on the drivetrain and better on road performance than the 37s and the 3.5" lift will give me a lower center of gravity.

Good luck with the decision - thats half the fun. ;) I went back and forth for 4 months before deciding on my setup. :safari-rig: :D

T
 

JPK

Explorer
I have the AEV 4.5" lift and 37" BFG A/T's. It isn't a DD but could be, in fact it is so much more fun that I often grab the keys. My Jeep rides a lot better than stock, and I can try stock by hopping into my wife's Jeep any time I want to. What is really remarkable is that my Jeep handles and corners better than stock, though it sits 7" taller than stock and weighs a hell of a lot more than stock with AEV front and rear bumpers, the 37" spare, AEV steel corner guards and diff gaurd, a rear cargo box, a winch (but with synthetic winch line and aluminum hawse fairlead to help keep weight down,) a roof rack, RROR skids (aluminum to help keep the weight down,) a small engel fridge and an 18gal auxilliary fuel tank. And then there is the fishing gear in the warmer months and the hunting gear in the cooler months.

My Jeep rides well enough that I drove it out to Moab twice this year, once with the family, wife and two kids, 14 and 11. I have a 2500 Suburban and a trailer, but the Jeep rides better than the Suburban. I chose to drive out - that should say alot.

Contrary to popular belief, your Jeep won't need an upgraded drive train, at least right off the bat. I keep waiting for my front axle tube to bend, the C's to bend, the axles to break... Still waiting, and my Jeep Hemi power. I do try to drive smoothly off road and limit locker use to when I really think I'll need it. (BTW, quickly turning the steering wheel right and left as you roll forward after hitting the disconnect switch helps get the lockers unlocked quickly, so you don't stress anything turning after your obstruction while the lockers are still trying to unlock - a trick told me by AEV.) I'll go with a Pro Rock D44 if I ever do manage to break or bend something. And try to find one first hand instance of C's bending and you can't, but lots of I heard from a guy who heard from a guy... This was pointed out by Dave Harriton, ACI founder and I did try to find even one instance of a first hand report - and failed at the time. I've read of one broken C on a JK since then. Tubes - yes they bend, wrung axle shafts - yes, busted u-joints - yes. Bent C's no and but one broken C.

I'm still running the oem shafts with the Rezeppa joints, which are stronger than double cardin shafts and aren't vibration prone like the double cardin joints. Unlike other pre '12 autos I have no interference issues because of the 545rfe swap and RROR skids, which have clearence built in.

As mentioned, I've had the Jeep in Moab a couple of times, and it has performed very well and bent or broken nothing. I stick to trails that are rated 6 by Red Rock 4wd Club because I have a 2100 mile ride home from Moab and I drove my Jeep out there - once with the family in it. The 6's have not been much of a challenge for the Jeep. Steel Bender, Hell's Revenge, other 6's. Take a look at the Easter Jeep Safari website for ratings and descriptions of trails to see how those 6's stack up. They aren't Pritchett's Canyon! But with a 2100 mile ride home no Pritchett's Canyon for me. I also like my Jeep!

Larger tires will actually provide a better ride than smaller tires of the same model. Think about it, each bump, pothole, seam is a smaller % of diameter or circumference. And the larger tire has more air at lower pressure and deforms more readily to absorb bumps when seams, potholes, etc are encountered. Larger tires do need religeous rotation shcedules and more frequent re-balancing though. I went A/T's because of the road miles. Thought I would hate them and want to move to an M/T, but I have been suprised by their performance off road, and on road they are quiet and smooth. You may want to consider them.

With the auto 37's are apparently doable with 4.10's. I didn't think they would be but read this from a fellow on AEV's forum:
"I'm really surprised by the power in the '12 models. I'm running 37" Krawlers, auto trans, on a 4.5" AEV lift and I am not really motivated to immediately change gears. I'll do it eventually, but the motor is still moving those tires really well. I've had TJ's previously and going to 33s or 35s was fairly painful and nearly forced me to change gear ratios. But the JK is still very street worthy with the 4.10 ratio on 37s in my opinion. I live in a fairly flat area though. I will probably regear when AEV's Procal comes out, but I don't see any need to go further than 4.88s. Anything more is just going to cut top end speeds, you wouldn't be doing it to regain power.

I did notice that my gas mileage has dropped fairly significantly. The onboard computer is reading around 16 MPG now on highways (14 in city). This is off though because the tire size has changed dramatically. Until I get my ProCal, and recalibrate for tire size, my odometer will be off as will this MPG reading. I'm just hoping that the gear ratio change will bring back some of the MPGs I lost.

All this is a long winded way of saying that I think you'll be perfectly happy with 4.10 gears, manual, and 35s. I'd like to see what AEV recommends in the near future as the ProCal comes out though. But on the street at least, you won't find yourself wanting more power."

Find the thread on AEV here: http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=3231

I originally wanted 35's but my then 10yr old son wanted the big meats, so I said, "What the hell..." Damn glad I went 37's now. If you want 37's you will never be happy with 35's, even if they might be marginally more practicle for a DD. Go 37's!

JPK
 

comac90

Observer
JPK makes a some good points .... But, to be clear, there will be ride issues with 37s compared to 35s. The more unsprung weight, the worse the ride, generally speaking. From personal experience, some of that 'loss of ride quality' from increasing unsprung weight is mitigated with tire deflection as JPK mentioned. But, acceleration and handling will suffer - it's a question of degree, a HEMI helps a bit with the acceleration, right JPK? LOL :D Adding rotating mass at the wheels is one of the worse things one can do if trying to maintain performance. And, generally speaking, the more sidewall, the more vague the steering - though, the 37" BFG MTs seem to get some good onroad and offroad reviews.

When i decided to buy the JK, I was in a good position to build whatever I wanted. Originally, my plan was to keep my DD (my 'other' ExPo "4x4" vehicle - a rather nice E-class 4matic that had been doing triple duty as mountain bike carrier, camper, and work car :D ) and go 37s with with the 4.5". After much reading (and gear ratio math) and based on what I knew my use of the vehicle would be, it became clear 35s would be perfect for me ... And I LOVE my setup so far and have zero plans to change it ... And, as I mentioned, decided to sell the E and DD the JK. I tried hard to convince myself on 37s, though - I'm a big fan of them having run them on my last Defender (though, it wasnt a DD) and driven them thru everything from Patzcuaro's in Cruces to Carnage Canyon in CO to Pritchett's in Moab to backcountry camping all over and a lot of roads in-between.

I've built up several rigs over the years, primarily Land Rovers, from crawler to overlander. I'm a fairly fluid driver and light on the pedal. But, the number of ring and pinions and axle shafts I've blown on those things (and any of you guys who've run rovers know what I'm talking about) has made me extra cautious on tire sizes and building strength into the drivetrain and housings. I've changed enough ring and pinions, axle shafts, and CV joints trailside during my life. I don't care to do that anymore. I no longer 'wait to break' and then upgrade.

--- I only say that to give some context to my opinion and to say my personal experiences have probably made me overly cautious. YMMV

Just go 37s with the 4.5" and let us know how it goes ... :sombrero:

T
 

JPK

Explorer
Yes, unsprung weight is a good thing to keep in mind, but the weight difference between a 37" BFG KM2 and a 35" KM2 is 4.34lbs per tire (70.57 vs. 66.23.) That is less than a 4% difference in the wheel and tire element of unsprung weight. Less than 2% of total unsprung weight, which includes axles housings, axles, differential housings and and gearing, tie rod, track bars.... Even less of a percentage if you ever stengthen or replace your axle housings.

Yes, neither handling or steering will be quite as good as with 35's on the same suspension, and add in the extra 1" of lift to accomodate 37's (though the AEV 3.5" suspension can accomodate 37's if the 4.5" bump stops are used - Dave Harriton's diesel JK is set up that way) handling will "suffer" more. But recall, a JKU with a 4.5" AEV suspension and 37's still handles significantly better than the oem JKU with 32's, and the steering is just fine, better, more sure than stock.

There is no doubt that without a gear change the 35's will result in less loss of acceleration. With the new auto's top gear ratio of .83:1 and a 4.10 Rubicon axle ratio, you will be turning ~1925 rpm's at 60 with 37's and ~2035 with 35's, and that is significant. But the 3.6 has a flat torque curve, so I would try 37's with 4.10's, but unless the trial suprised me I would be planning to re-gear, but see the fellow's post on AEV's forum. There is no dispute that a Hemi of any variety overcomes many performance related issues! (However, even the Hemi's with their torque like to run in their sweet spot. With a Hemi 4.10's and 37's would be fine, but 4.56's would be even better!)

The Next Generation D44 front axle in the Rubicon has much thicker ring gears, and pinions, pinion shafts to accomodate them, than previous D44's. From Dynatrac: "These “new generation” Dana 44 gears offer substantial improvements when compared to the traditional Dana 44 gears commonly available. They are stronger than previous generations and we feel this justifies engineering the ProRock 44 to accept them. All models of ProRock 44 use JK ring and pinion gears." And: "The ProRock 44™ is a high-pinion Dana 44 replacement housing designed to capitalize on the advantages of the stronger “Next Generation” Dana 44 ring & pinion. Fact - High pinion gears and housings are stronger than their low-pinion counterparts when installed in a front driving axle application. The Next Generation Dana 44 gear set has a larger ring gear and a larger pinion shaft than previous Dana 44s."

Oem axle shafts can twist or break, but when they do they ussually don't cause additional damage and can relatively easily replaced. A heavy foot on the accelerator or allowing the front end/tires to bind are leading causes of axle shaft death, and that is the reason I passed on the tip on how to get the e-lockers to unlock quickly.

The oem D44 housing could use improvement. But I see no reason to put lipstick on a pig. Dynatrac Trail Series or Pro Rock housings are substantiall stronger than oem. Rather than spending money putting that lipstick on that pig, I suggest limiting unsprung weight gain and increasing strength by replacing the oem housing AFTER it bends, IF it ever bends. I don't need to decide today which Dynatrac to go with, but the Trail Series and the ProRock standard tube seem to be enough for my use. I would go with Dynatrac ball joints when changing housings too. See Dynatrac info below:
Strength in Bending
Note: Values greater than one indicate an improvement in bending strength. For example, the stock housing
with a sleeve is 1.35 times as strong when compared to the stock housing without a sleeve.
Stock JK Axle 2.5” OD x 0.25” = 1.0
Stock JK Axle with 2.0" OD x 0.25" sleeve on inside of tube = 1.35
Dynatrac JK Trail Series – Stock JK Pumpkin with re-tube to 2.75" OD x 0.375" = 1.79
Dynatrac ProRock 44 Standard Axle Tube 3.0" OD x 0.3125" = 2.13
Dynatrac ProRock 44 Extreme Duty Axle Tube 3.0" OD x 0.5" = 2.82
Weight
Note: Values greater than one correspond to an increase in weight. The ratios below show that the sleeve is
one of the heaviest options. [ADDED BY JPK - for reference the oem housing weighs 93lbs]
Stock JK Axle 2.5” OD x 0.25” = 1.0
Stock JK Axle with 2.0" OD x 0.25" sleeve on inside = 1.78
Dynatrac JK Trail Series Axle Housing Tube 2.75" OD x 0.375" = 1.58
Dynatrac ProRock 44 Standard Axle Tube 3.0" OD x 0.3125" = 1.49
Dynatrac ProRock 44 Extreme Duty Axle Tube 3.0" OD x 0.5" = 2.22
Strength Per Pound Ratio
Note: This metric compares the strength improvement to the weight increase. Obviously, adding strength will
add weight, however, not every pound added leads to the same improvement in strength. Strength is a
combination of material properties and geometry in this case. Adding material to the outside of the axle tube
will result in a greater improvement of strength for the same weight of material added.
Stock JK = 1.0
Stock JK with sleeve = 0.76
Dynatrac Trail Series JK Axle = 1.13
Dynatrac ProRock 44 Standard Axle Tube = 1.43
Dynatrac ProRock 44 Extreme Duty Axle Tube = 1.27

If your JKU ends up weighing three tons, Dynatrac also offers a full float rear axle set up. But other than an occasional housing bed or shaft break, the rear axles seem to do well. On the other hand, break a rear axle and the shaft will want to walk out of the housing, with the tire attached, unless you can jury rig something to keep it in there. A full float set up would allow running in "front drive" to get off the trail without jury rigging. Out in Moab over Easter Jeep Safari, I had the opportunity to witness a good half dozen axle shaft breaks among different makes of truck and different years of Jeeps. Common denominator - too much throttle!!!

One last consideration, don't overlook garage height. If the garage at your home or garages around your town are limited in height, the 4.5" and 37" option might prove a pita.

JPK
 
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comac90

Observer
Yes, unsprung weight is a good thing to keep in mind, but the weight difference between a 37" BFG KM2 and a 35" KM2 is 4.34lbs per tire (70.57 vs. 66.23.) That is less than a 4% difference in the wheel and tire element of unsprung weight. Less than 2% of total unsprung weight, which includes axles housings, axles, differential housings and and gearing, tie rod, track bars.... Even less of a percentage if you ever stengthen or replace your axle housings.

....... Out in Moab over Easter Jeep Safari, I had the opportunity to witness a good half dozen axle shaft breaks among different makes of truck and different years of Jeeps. Common denominator - too much throttle!!!

JPK

But, that extra unsprung weight is rotating mass hung a significant distance from the center from the axle ... is an exponential relationship. So, while it is 'only' a few pounds, those few pounds is significant. But, really, I see it as more of a gearing issue first and breakage issue second.

As for throttle ... been there, done that. LOL As I alluded to earlier j, running a Defender with stock axles and CVs will 'cure' one of any throttle jockey tendencies very quickly. :D But, also been 'the other place' where the entire weight of the vehicle is being moved by one tire whose sidewall is bound against a rockwall. In those situations, there's no replacement for 300M shafts and, at least, 35 splines. ;) And, you're right, full-floating rears (like all Rovers or dana 60s - never mind the weight, eh-hem) sure are an easy fix when you blow up a shaft.

But, to the OPs original question ... you cannot go wrong with AEV's 3.5 or 4.5" lifts. As JPK said, they are both better than stock and will work well. Have you seen the vimeo video of the AEV 3.5" and 35s running the road course on BFG MTs? ... I don't think you'll find any other company's suspension handling that well on road with the ability to head backcountry. :bike_rider:

T
 

JPK

Explorer
I am having trouble translating your French, "there's no replacement for 300M shafts ..." :snorkel: Can you please help and provide an avoirdupois conversion? It can't be 300 meters, nor 300cm, nor 300mm, so what is it?

Rear New Generation D44 is 1.41" shaft diameter, 32 spline. Front New Generation D44 is 1.31" and 30 spline.
 
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